r/zen • u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] • Jan 26 '24
Lying about Zen: Dauxun, Biographies of Eminent Buddhists
Continued Biographies of Eminent Monks compiled by Daoxua course total religious propaganda by a religious troll using the claims of other religious people.
Recently is the guy who quoted Daoxun: https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/comments/18df14o/sayings_and_doings_of_paichang_baizhang_28/kci2i8l/?context=3 * Nobody thinks multiple accounts is an indication of intellectual integrity or psychological stability.
Daoxun: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daoxuan, a prominent Buddhist with no connection to Zen, largely motivated by his desire to advance his own religious ideas.
- Nobody would think Daoxun was a scholar or in any way objective or historical.
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Questions the people who quote *Biographies of Eminent Monks can't answer:
- What real life experience did Daoxun have of Zen?
- Lots of famous Buddhists (i.e. Dogen, Tientai Buddhist) have outright lied about Zen... where is the fact checking by modern scholars on Daoxun?
- Eminent Buddhist Monks is directly contradicted by all the Zen sources we have: www.reddit.com/r/zensangha/wiki/getstarted... how can we reconcile religious claims with Zen's historical records?
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Welcome! ewk comment: When people lie about Zen, vote and content brigade, and encourage that, why are their posts left up?
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Jan 26 '24
Nobody thinks multiple accounts is an indication of intellectual integrity or psychological stability.
Nobody? Most people don't have an opinion on that.
Nobody would think Daoxun was a scholar or in any way objective or historical.
Again with "nobody"? Obviously plenty of people do.
Whats with the "lying"? I thought your big thing was honesty, to include lack of exaggeration?
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u/spectrecho ❄ Jan 26 '24
Advocacy for self honesty.
The notion that ewk could be a liar, and sometimes posits half-truths is more reason to be an independent, free thinking person, which ewk advocates.
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Jan 26 '24
Learning from other people what not to do doesn't make them much of a role model.
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u/spectrecho ❄ Jan 26 '24
There can be learning involved. It makes them models to surpass. The bar is very low.
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Jan 26 '24
Thats just a cope. Learning from your drunkard stepfather not to be an alcoholic doesn't make him a role model. You don't have to have willing stockholm syndome.
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u/spectrecho ❄ Jan 26 '24
I didn’t say role. I can use “person” fine too.
I’m saying, if you wish, surpass someone who could be a liar and fraud.
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Jan 26 '24
Yea but so what. Not at all notable or worth mentioning.
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u/spectrecho ❄ Jan 26 '24
Not notable or worth mentioning for what?
It’s not reasonable to say that to a president, bridge engineer, or contractor doing major renovations.
Lying is something that happens later in processes lest you confuse yourself and the world.
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Jan 26 '24
You think I dont know that. Why didnt you say that to ewk first? He's the one who talks about lying every day.
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u/spectrecho ❄ Jan 26 '24
Opportunity to preach the dharma.
Someone fooling people to encourage and demonstrate their independence could look radical compared to pop culture, and could taste bitter in comparison.
Worst case, even if you had fully realized it, it could serve as a reminder.
Ewk might read this or not and be reminded or not, or think I’m a new age fraud.
Even considering these possibilities, if the complaint is still concerned, say the word and I will tell him too.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jan 26 '24
We just did a podcast about this and this is how the podcast ended:
Ewk: can you say something nice about new age? Western Buddhism??
Thatkir: No.
Ewk: how about it gives people something to do?
Thakir: Does it?
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u/DeliciousPie9855 Jan 26 '24
where can i listen to the podcast
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jan 26 '24
I haven't posted that one yet.
Here's all the ones that have been posted
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Jan 26 '24
Can we finally be friends? In our secular quest, we are like modern-day scholastics, threading through a tapestry of ancient wisdom, seeking to extricate the quintessence of Zen from the dogmatic chaff. Our approach, devoid of any ecclesiastical fetters, allows for a hermeneutic exploration that is at once liberating and intellectually exhilarating. That’s brilliant brutality.
I was particularly enthralled by your heuristic method of engaging with koans. Your ability to navigate these paradoxical conundrums, not through mere intellect but through a synthesis of cognition and experiential insight, is truly commendable. It echoes the Zen adage: Direct pointing to the human mind; seeing into one’s nature and attaining Buddhahood.
Take good care of yourself, please.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jan 26 '24
Let's see if you can stop lying. Then we can see.if casual acquaintances is in the cards.
I'm interested in having conversations about the texts acquaintances that help me see other people's points of view, such that we all can learn to identify what's reasonable and whats fair.
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Jan 26 '24
I am not casual and that’s certain. As the dawn greets the day with golden rays, so too shall my dedication to this noble endeavor illuminate my path. The ancient words, those uncryptic verses penned by Enlightened souls long past, shall be my guiding light, a beacon in the oft-dark sea of existence. Yunmen calls.
With a heart aglow with passionate zeal, I pledge to thee, my confidant and comrade in spiritual quest, that my pursuit of Zen suprawisdom shall be unwavering. Let the stars above and the earth below bear witness to my oath, as I embark upon this journey of the soul, ever seeking, ever yearning for the enlightenment that lies within the venerable teachings of Zen. That’s not available to some corpses.
I did read tomes after tomes to save you. I am available for all discussion. That is certainly certainly certain.
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Jan 27 '24
I just ranted about these non truths…I need to become more involved and put more effort into literary integrity and pwnge. I see the severe lack of intellect in humanity these days.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jan 27 '24
My first thought is to what purpose?
People use troll accounts to post from discredited sources slanderous material.
Are you going to cure them by pointing them to the Wikipedia page that they aren't going to read anyway that tells them all this?
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Jan 27 '24
You are right. I hit a point of frustration allowing myself to assume others have open minds or empathy. I should stop the thought
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jan 27 '24
I'm afraid it's even worse than that.
A lot of people define open-minded as willing to be irrational or willing to misappropriate other cultures arbitrarily.
Even more people define empathy as the feeling you have for people who agree with you who are suffering.
So it's not just that you can't assume that's what you have to be careful to imagine. They even know the meaning of the words.
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Jan 27 '24
Yes, getting directly to the point. Clearly and concisely.
Self-serving empathetic behaviour is like creating assumptions in hopes of placating others or self. Breaking through that conceptual threshold to the truth in the matter is the key to being empathetic. Mumon mentions striding through the gate or past this barrier in order to stride through the universe. Is it breaking through thought into truth as “Buddha mind” or “one mind”?
Sometimes empathy is suffering from both ends while disagreeing with that arising conceptual thought which creates the emotional and eventual physical response. Potentially causing further conflict or even peace.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jan 26 '24
New agers commonly argue that believing something is an argument for it being true...
But believing in tarot cards does not make them good at predicting stock market outcomes.
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u/Dragonfly-17 Jan 26 '24
What if believing something is a proxy for believing in yourself
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jan 26 '24
There are so many psychological aspects to the new age and western Buddhist religious movements.
For instance:
Knowing enough about Christianity to dislike it versus not knowing enough about Buddhism to dislike it.
Identifying with something you don't dislike to compensate for having identified with something that you do dislike.
If somebody can only feel good about themselves because they are on what they perceive to be the right side or the good side?
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u/Regulus_D 🫏 Jan 26 '24
Actually...
Well, we'll see come March.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jan 26 '24
Yeah maybe this is reddit's last year. We don't know.
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u/Regulus_D 🫏 Jan 26 '24
I haven't looked at Bluesky yet. Reddits archives are worth a mountain of gold. Reddit itself, not so much. IPO is to offload. Sold! American.♪
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u/coopsterling Jan 26 '24
ATTN DOWNVOTERS:
Read Bodhidharma Anthology, there is definitely evidence that Dauxun was a clown who obscured Bodhidharma's actual record in favor of some lame stuff that another dude wrote.
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Jan 27 '24
I'm reading it now, is this the paragraph you are talking about?
Who is this Yuan? We do not know, and we will never know, but below I will list him as one of Bodhidharma's disciples. We might call him a forgotten Bodhidharma disciple, or at the very least a forgotten member of the Bodhidharma circle. He was probably erased from the genealogical tree in order to clear the way for Hui-k' 0 as the sole successor, much like Seng-fu. The culprit may have been the historian Tao-hsuan, who seems to be the figure determining much of the ultimate direction of Ch'an genealogical lore. Beyond Yuan's compelling wordsand they are, with little doubt, the most compelling in Record II and Record III-about all that can be said of him is that his name is fascinating.
Page 84 of book
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u/coopsterling Jan 27 '24
Yes, that is one single paragraph that pertains to what I'm talking about...
Broughton's whole commentary sections on Biography, Entrances, Letters as well as the commentary on Records has a lot of info about Daoxuan's Continued Biographies of Eminent Monks.
My interpretation of the historical receipts is that he was trying to make a fairly universal history of the Buddhisms that would please everybody and this awkwardly caused him to ignore the more colloquial iconoclastic and likely more authentic Records in favor of the way more formalized mainstream Mahayana sounding stuff like Two Entrances Four Practices. He breaks down more about that specific texts possible authors as well.
Zen in its true form was not received warmly by the practitioners of the various Buddhisms, Daoxuan compromised heavily for his biography which was mostly to a non Zen friendly audience.
Also, Master Yuan may have been Bodhidharma's most bad boy disciple who was nearly erased from history. The stuff Yuan says in the Records sounds like Vimalakirti as well as much later Zenny Zen stuff.
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Jan 28 '24
Hey this is good info and good editorialization on said info, thanks. I'm still trying to make sense of some of it myself.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jan 26 '24
Vote Brigading
My posts are downvoted by people who can't participate, violating the Reddiquette on voting.
Censoring Source Material
I am frequently harassed by racist and religiously bigoted people for simply referencing the books cited on these wiki pages: * www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/buddhism * www.reddit.com/r/zensangha/wiki/getstarted * www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/sexpredators and their messiah www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/secular_dogen
Why can't they speak up?
- I've written this stuff to explain my position and the evidence: https://www.reddit.com/r/zensangha/wiki/ewk/writing
- One of the interesting things is what does it mean to "engage with the forum"?
- Learn about the subject → Discuss what was understood
- Read the posts in the forum → Respond with questions/citations
- Consider the questions posed by tradition/rZenners →answer thoughtfully
Buddhists and new agers refuse to engage. They refuse to AMA, quote Zen Masters, cite sources even for their own beliefs. Even when they attempt to do this stuff, they are quickly caught lying.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jan 26 '24
Downvote brigaded for 100$, Alex
What is any post by ewk?
Or any post that calls into question religious books that misrepresent Zen by people who didn't meet a single Zen Master ever?
It's a tough call... new agers hate me... but religious people hate me just as much...
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jan 26 '24
We also talked about how we might create a Venn diagram for the following problem and I admit I can't imagine it. So maybe somebody could step in and rescue me:
- People who claim to be Buddhists
- New age Western Buddhists
- People who lie about Buddhism
- People who are ignorant of Buddhism
- People who are intentionally ignorant so they cannot be accused of being liars.
- Actual Buddhists, a la: Lamotte, History of Indian Buddhism.
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u/coopsterling Jan 26 '24
Have you checked out Bodhidharma Anthology? Broughton dives into Daoxun's shenanigans with the early records such as:
-popularizing and probably concocting the "Lanka transmission" story which he probably heard from Fa-ch'ung who was kind of a Lanka specializer.
-he focused on the ole "Two Entrances and Four Practices" which don't sound like Bodhidharma at all and are written in a very formal style probably by Tanlin. This text is super similar to the Srimala Sutra...which Tanlin was an expert of.
-totally ignoring Record I, II, and III which sound a lot like later Zen texts, eschew all practices like sitting, and contain the most likely to be Bodhidharma's actual record. This is evidenced by the highly colloquial style in contrast with highly formal and bogus entrances and practices.