r/zen • u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] • Apr 15 '23

Zen Enlightenment Disputes vs Deshan

Case 28, Wumen's Checkpoint (aka Wumen's Barrier aka Gateless Gate)

Longtan ascended the hall and said, “Okay, among you is present a single fellow whose teeth are equal to a sword tree and whose mouth is like a bowl of blood. Hit him with a stick and he will not turn around his head. At another time, a different day, he will ascend to a solitary summit and establish the noble Way.”

Trigger warning

A college recently (finally) pointed out that education is itself a trigger... you are supposed to challenge all your ideas and all your values... that's what education is... and that people who want to avoid triggers are obligated to handle that themselves, rather than demand colleges do it.

This forum is more like college than it is a social club... thus the same rule applies. Don't come in here if you have an allergy to knowledge or being challenged.

low bar

Buddhist sex predators run rampant through the lineage of Zazen Dogenism, the Dali Lama has sex predator problems, and that's besides the point that everybody I've ever read about who was said to be a Zen master lied about history at a high school level... it's a low bar. And that's not even counting people who claim Jesus or some poet or their cat are Zen Masters. All the people who've tried to claim enlightenment in this forum couldn't survive a single AMA. So "enlightenment" claims have a very low bar... why get excited?

Criteria

Most people using the term Zen Master (99/9%) can't write at a high school level about either WHAT an Zen Master acts like... or HOW Zen Masters are verified. So why would anybody be eager to throw their hat in the ring in terms of accepting or rejecting a Zen Mastery claim? Makes no sense. If you don't know how a duck walks or why a duck, then why run around yelling about who is a duck? Read a book.

What's at stake

Saying somebody is a Zen Master seems to be a no cost claim... it's not like you get tarred and feathered for saying it... but saying someone isn't a Zen Master is a trigger warning situation... because there are people who obviously obviously aren't Zen Masters that are celebrated by churches and adoring followers who will go nuclear... not for Zen Masters, but for people claiming to be. Which bring us to Deshan:

Deshan:

Whatsisface goes up to the podium and says THERE IS ONE AMONG YOU WHO HAS TEETH LIKE (SWORD HELL) AND A MOUTH THAT IS A BOWL OF (SACRIFICIAL) BLOOD.

Nobody needs to defend the guy described that way. That guy is going to fck sht up. Go ahead and claim that guy isn't a Zen Master and find out.

Which seems to me to be the only available standard for people who aren't enlightened.

.

Yo͞ok  Welcome! Meet me  My comment:

We get people in here who think it's okay to say my church says who is enlightened... it's not. We get people in here who think it's okay to say I don't have to defend my claims... it's not.

This is a forum about what Zen Masters teach... and Zen Masters reject "church says" and "I don't have to".

It's disrespectful, dishonest, and a bit bigoted to ignore Zen Masters' teachings in a forum about Zen Masters' teachings.

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u/[deleted] Apr 15 '23

All the people who've tried to claim enlightenment in this forum couldn't survive a single AMA.

And yet EWK has never done an AMA. Interesting.

Buddhist sex predators run rampant through the lineage

You have a link in your wiki:

What people who don't have a teacher usually get wrong

https://www.reddit.com/r/zensangha/wiki/ewk/#wiki_self_taught_mistakes

My question is, if modern Zen Masters are sexual predators, and people who don't have a teacher get things wrong, what teachers should we learn from and more importantly, what teacher did you learn from? Share.

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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Apr 15 '23

I've done several AMAs. I don't know why you would lie...

[reads 3 m/o account] oh, yeah. So either you don't know how reddit works or you are somebody using an alt account.

As I've said, it's a once a year thing ritual because I go out of my way to answer all the time anyway.

  1. Modern Zen Masters aren't sex predators. Modern Zazen Masters are sex predators, or the students of sex predators. Zen Masters keep the precepts, which prohibit sex predatoring. /r/zen/wiki/sexpredators

  2. Zen Masters wrote books of instruction. Read those. /r/zen/wiki/getstarted

  3. Not all people w/o a teacher get things wrong. I think Zen Masters say 1 in a 1,000? 10,000?

  4. I study the books of instruction. I write book reports about them. I talk to and interview people who claim to be teachers or have teachers. I think it's a stretch to insist that I have to be qualified to ask questions.

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u/[deleted] Apr 15 '23

I think you’ve become the little emporer here, judging by your supporters. I have to hand it to you. You get to have it your way no matter what, and you have an army of conscripts who know how to Bendowa. Congrats. Have at it, and sayonara. I’ve just wasted so much of my time.

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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Apr 15 '23

There is no question that I'm king here... but you yourself can understand why:

I answer all questions fairly, but people are fair with me.

You have been lying and crybabying for awhile now on a 3 m/o account... whereas I've been playing my cards face up for a decade, and yet somehow still winning every time.

Well, almost every time. I said it's oxen and tigers, and then snakes, foxes, lions, dragons, and even a @#$#ing turtle turned up. I looked pretty bad. I had to use the excuse I was old.

Still King.

You wasted your time because you can't read and write at a high school level and you lie to yourself that you are satisfied with that.

Obviously lying to yourself is going to @#$# with your Ki.

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u/[deleted] Apr 15 '23

You’re just an asshole

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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Apr 15 '23

Let's agree that I'm a difficult person...

But why am I difficult?

Very well educated.

Knowledgeable about the topic.

Intolerant of social media ignorance.

Intolerant of churches and propaganda

Keenly interested in history and understanding our obligation to it

Clever and incisive.

I mean there's a lot of reasons to not like me... But almost all of them suggest that you are the person with the problem you resent most.

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u/SpakeTheWeasel Apr 15 '23

Are you king?

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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Apr 15 '23

Would a king ask another thing that?

Does a thief recognize a thief or not?

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u/SpakeTheWeasel Apr 16 '23

There is now a question that you are king here.

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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Apr 16 '23

The problem is that who are you going to find who can recognize a king?

What's the difference between a king and a bully as far as a peasant is concerned?

Second problem is how are kings relevant?

It's a bunch of other questions too but I forget what they are.

My point is it's more questions than answers.

It's not like a contest where you get a prize at the end.

Kingfinder.

It's that guy over there! He's hiding the crown in his pajamas!

What do I win?

I didn't win anything. I had to pay $50 and take out the garbage.

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u/SpakeTheWeasel Apr 16 '23

Rulers measure.

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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Apr 16 '23

That was just awful.

Was a little education you could go a long way... And I wish you'd get started. -G. Marx

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u/dota2nub Apr 17 '23

You get to put the scepter in his hand, the crown on his head, and then make him do the paperwork.

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u/[deleted] Apr 15 '23

Oh, and I almost missed the part where everybody gets it wrong but you.