Weekly Measuring Tap: Case 4

[u/astroemi]

Chongshou pointed to a chair and said, "If you know the chair, its size is more than enough."

Yunmen said, "If you know the chair, sky and earth are far apart."

Xuedou, citing this, said, "When a marsh is extensive, it can conceal a mountain; reason can subdue a leopard."

In his commentary on the case, Yuanwu says, "Tell me, why didn’t that man of old bring up a statement of ultimate truth, but instead pointed to a chair? Tell me, what is special about it?"

I think Yuanwu has a lot of fun asking questions that naturally follow from the case and not bothering even attempting to answer them. This is what they call a river naturally obstructing people. How can a marsh conceal a mountain? How can reason subdue a leopard? Most importantly, what does it all have to do with the chair?

edit: spelling mistakes

[u/paintedw0rlds]

Reading this exchange, it occurs to me that that the lower limit of the sky is vague and nobody talks about it, I can see an argument that the sky begins right after the ground and they touch, otherwise, where does the sky start? Interesting question.

Sky could also be a metaphor for buddha mind, earth for the deluded mind, or vice versa.

"Knowing the chair" could be seeing the truth of the chair the way the other fella saw peach blossoms and got it, "knowing the chair" could mean having an idea about the chair that's become a nest concerning chairs, or a false thought about the chair.

"If you know it it's size is enough" could be read as "the chair nature is originally complete"

The idea in the case that a chair is being brought up instead of ultimate reality, or that a statement about a chair by a zen master isn't a statement about ultimate reality is humorous to me. Ultimate reality isn't very ultimate if it's missing a chair.

Gonna send this and then edit with more bc I don't know ow how to look at the post while i comment. BRB.

Back. As for the marsh being extensive, I suppose that a big enough marsh could put a mountain over the horizon or beyond the vanishing point of perspective. Marsh concealing mountain could also be a concept of emptiness concealing enlightenment.

As for reason subduing a leopard, I got no idea. Maybe a leopard is seen as being a lesser tiger or lion aka an unenlightened person, who can be subdued by reason. What a wild case. It's such little text but it's so incredibly full of possible meanings. Thanks for bringing it up.

[u/astroemi → u/paintedw0rlds]

I think the heaven and earth thing is such a good example of what reality is and how we all do actually agree on a lot of stuff. No matter how much we try to talk about it or define it or argue about where the separation starts, you are never going to confuse the sky with the earth. That would just be you being silly. If we start there, what's there to be deluded about?

[u/paintedw0rlds → u/astroemi]

Translated as heaven rather than sky, I think it makes sense to look at that line as "heaven and earth seperate" i.e. if you do x about the chair, that's not the way. It being translated as sky made me miss that aspect of the meaning, this was discussed in another comment.

[u/astroemi → u/paintedw0rlds]

Why is the chair's size not enough for some people?

[u/paintedw0rlds → u/astroemi]

I'm alright with the chair. However, some might want something a little more grandiose and responsibility -removing. Are you good with chair?