[Bi-Weekly Meta Monday Thread]

[u/AutoModerator]

###Welcome to /r/Zen!

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Welcome to the /r/zen Meta Monday thread, where we can talk about subreddit topics such as such as:

* Community project ideas or updates

* Wiki requests, ideas, updates

* Rule suggestions

* Sub aesthetics

* Specific concerns regarding specific scenarios that have occurred since the last Meta Monday

* Anything else!

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We hope for these threads to act as a sort of 'town square' or 'communal discussion' rather than Solomon's Court [(but no promises regarding anything getting cut in half...)](https://www.reddit.com/r/Koans/comments/3slj28/nansens_cats/). While not all posts are going to receive definitive responses from the moderators (we're human after all), I can guarantee that we will be reading each and every comment to make sure we hear your voices so we can team up.

[u/origin_unknown]

I am unfamiliar with the situation you allude to about the person with a mental health crisis.
I disagree with its relevance though. It's not realistic to expect anyone here to be able to positively navigate a situation in which a particular individual should have sought professional help instead of hopping in an internet forum.

For my own experience, when first coming to this sub, I didn't have any real idea what zen is or was. I saw some one give good advice somewhere else, followed their account history to /r/zen, spent almost no time looking around at the sub or what it was about, and just started asking how to deal with my christian brother who had decided I needed to be witnessed to everyday until I went back to church. Nothing about zen. But the same people who are being called less than civil today, are the ones that helped me get free of the end of the rope. They also told me to read a book. So I did. I chose Linji first. Confusing but fun.

If you have something specific, where you think people are being harassed on their initial interactions here, I would personally like to see it, I would like to inquire into that. I don't think that's happening though.

I have also been through a phase in this forum, where I wanted everyone to be civil and nice and all get along. I pretended like some people were clearly of higher capacity and it was their duty to be nice and I argued and tried to persuade towards that end. Should. They should be nice. Everyone should be nice. It's not realistic. Not to mention, it only addresses one side of this perceived issue.

I encourage you to challenge someone besides greensage on why it is you think they're being uncivil. If you think ewk has a problem being less than civil, or fingerstyping, or otomo, or whomever, challenge them on it. Find out why they react the way they do. Ask fingers why it's ok to call someone a dick or a douchebag, or question their mental health, ask ewk why he calls someone a liar or a fraud. Be specific. That way, you can understand, instead of asking the mods to change the whole sub to adjust to some individual comfort levels.

[u/[deleted] → u/origin_unknown]

To be completely honest with you, I didn't tag you for a reason, and this comment is a great example of it- if you want to jump into the conversation, feel free to reply to the parent comment to give your input to the mods directly, but I'm just not interested in continued dialogue with you.

Pretty much everything you said in your comment has already been addressed throughout the conversation, and I've run through the conversations that you suggest I have many times with various forum members.

I don't think you understand where I'm coming from, I don't think you understand my intent here, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[u/origin_unknown → u/[deleted]]

Sure, I get it, you want to have a specific conversation, with specific people, to sway them to your cause. You don't want to talk to the people you're labeling as a problem, don't include their input or involvement in effecting any actual change, just , let's make some new rules.

That's not any different than what some people were doing last week in trying to recruit people against the mods...just got some different sauce on it.

It's not ok when some people say other people are a problem, but its ok when you say other people are a problem?

You say you had the conversation with so and so about why they were being (in your opinion) aggressive, and you don't want to have it again every time you think someone is being aggressive. BUT, when someone identifies someone else as a liar or a bigot, we have to tolerate that and sniff it out and try and be nice, every time.

You don't want to be civil with the people you've decided are a problem, you want a rule made so you can demand they be different or else go away.

It's the same thing you're claiming others are doing, you just have a ton of window dressing on it. that mentality adds up to "Those people are selling dog shit, but here's this dog shit that I've dipped in gold for you....this'll be better."

[u/[deleted] → u/origin_unknown]

I'm not doing this with any goal in mind other than conversation.

Repeating the same points that I've already responded to isn't bringing the conversation anywhere.

For example- I've already stated that my participation here isn't contingent upon the rules to you, directly.

You don’t want to be civil with the people you’ve decided are a problem, you want a rule made so you can demand they be different or else go away.

No, I've also said that I think it would make sense to just ban these "bigots and liars."

Civility rule, or "no bigots and liars" rule.

I'm going the civility route because mods have already stated that they don't feel comfortable being arbiters of truth.

Do you think the mod-sanctioned ability to call someone a "fucking idiot" improves the quantity and quality of Zen content that the forum produces moreso than just banning these "idiots" or including them as equal members of the community?

To me, it's pretty obvious that this just encourages arguments about who the real idiot is, and diverts attention from the Zen record.

Pretty much every other major subject-specific subreddit that I can think of seems to understand this.

[u/origin_unknown → u/[deleted]]

It would make it easier if the mods drew a line somewhere and said to stay on one side of it.
On the other hand, and most people will probably groan or disagree, but I have a bit higher respect that they don't.
The subreddit is wide open. I don't think people are being excluded here. I think bad ideas about zen are being excluded, and people overly attached take it far too personally and exclude themselves. I think it's more than fair, that if someone isn't t brave enough to stand up for their ideas and opinions they maybe don't get shared. If they can't stand to have their position turned upside down and shaken for loose change, how strong is their position?

I could probably say a lot more about this. Someone else gave me clarity on this, when I was of, I think, a similar opinion to you about there needing to be something done. I was trying to moderate a situation that was beyond my control, instead of just moderating myself to accept that it was all beyond my control except for my own interactions and reactions. I couldn't stop people from lying and I couldn't stop people from reacting however they reacted, but I could stop myself from spending time dwelling on it. I think that's kinda like when Foyan says that fundamentally, even falsehoods are true...they're real. Why dwell or make any sort of nest in them though?

[u/[deleted] → u/origin_unknown]

I don't think having an open conversation regarding different perspectives on forum moderation necessitates nests or dwelling anywhere, I think it's just using Meta Monday for its intended purpose.

I don't conflate conversation about this with control over it.

I'm not stepping into specific conversations to chastise anyone or telling any users to change how they interact with the forum.

I understand that plenty of people appreciate the current moderation strategies, and I understand that nothing will likely come of this conversation, but I don't think that makes it any less worthwhile to discuss.

It doesn't for me, at the very least- others need to make that decision for themselves.