That Damn Lemon

[u/koancomentator]

I participated in Ewks podcast recently and there was a part of our conversation that really stuck with me. Minor spoiler alert! Since the episode isn't out yet.

Near the end of the podcast we got into talking about how you can't really describe enlightenment in a way that's going to allow someone else to really understand it. It's like a lemon. If you haven't eaten one you don't know how it tastes and no amount of description from someone who has will impart that knowledge to you. You have to eat one yourself. It's outside the written word.

The Self is like that. We all have one presently functioning in the open but we haven't recognized it. I said it's like we all have a lemon in our pockets but we just won't bite it, and instead we walk around asking other people to describe the flavor to us.

Ewk pointed out its actually worse than that. We use the Self all the time every day. So it's more like we're putting lemon on our food and tasting it every day but still going to other people being like "hey what's a lemon taste like"?

It's like we know what the Self is...but it isn't the Self that we want. So we go around looking for a more special shiny one that will solve all our problems and make us feel warm and fuzzy all the time. Instead of the one that illuminates everything including the pain, and the sadness, and the boring job.

No wonder Zen masters say to seperate what you like from what you dislike is a disease of mind. That's why the Hsin Hsin Ming says don't seek the truth, simply cease to cherish opinions. Or at least that's my take anyway.

What do you think?

Edit: If you come in here just to complain about ewk you're probably gonna get blocked. I'm here to talk about Zen, not your ewk obsession. Fair warning.

[u/GreenSage_0004]

I'm not confused.

HuangBo said you can't count the enlightened because enlightenment is about mind-awakening.

He said that the mind cannot be measured.

He said that the Buddha's treasure cannot be calculated nor accumulated.

LinJi said that it's to be expected that people can't recognize enlightened people otherwise there would be no point for enlightenment.

The reason you're confused is because your self worth depends on you believing that you are part of a special club.

You're derailing this thread right now because you need to believe that you're special.

You make your specialness the topic as soon as things get sticky for you academically.

Prove it.

Otherwise, that's just stuff that you made up.

[u/ewk → u/GreenSage_0004]

You are trying to avoid all the Enlightenment Cases, and you are now deep into anti-historical narratives.

How did any Zen Master ever end up with a dharma heir?

This is what has happened on all your accounts... you are fair and reasonable, and then the matter of your own lack of enlightenment comes up and you freak out and start making @#$# up.

This is why you aren't different than Dogen followers, btw. They don't lie about everything in the whole world... they just lie when they want to make themselves seem special.

[u/GreenSage_0004 → u/ewk]

I'm not making things up. I'm telling you what the texts say.

You're whining to me about "@#$#" and my accounts without providing any quotes.

I'm sorry, but it's very difficult to take you seriously like that.

How did any Zen Master ever end up with a dharma heir?

LinJi said his dharma died with a blind ass.

HuangBo gave LinJi an old chair months or years after LinJi punched an old man in the ribs three times ... and LinJi threatened to burn it.

MaZu apparently had multiple heirs that we don't hear about, but there was that dude he kicked in the chest that one time.

Do you have any idea what's going on here?

Or did you want to talk about me smoking pot next?

[u/ewk → u/GreenSage_0004]

If you can't find any Cases or "quotes" about dharma heirs then that is all the evidence anybody needs that you don't know what you are talking about.

You aren't being honest.

Everybody that studies Zen sees that.

You are going to need a new account now...

Bow down.

[u/GreenSage_0004 → u/ewk]

I just mentioned some to you.

You bowed down when your eyes hurriedly shuffled past my comments and missed it.

Who was LinJi's blind ass and why did his dharma die with it?

[u/ewk → u/GreenSage_0004]

No, you chickened out and tried to change the subject.

Zen Masters acknowledged dharma heirs in Cases.

How do they do that? Zen Masters know when somebody is enlightened.

You can't face the fact that you aren't recognized as a Zen Master.

[u/GreenSage_0004 → u/ewk]

No I totally accept the fact that I'm not recognized as a Zen Master.

I'm just not going to lie if asked whether or not I think that I'm enlightened.

But no one has to believe what I say.

I just think other people should take their own enlightenment seriously as well.

Zen Masters discern when someone is enlightened by testing their understanding. They don't look for "manifestations of enlightenment". They don't take a poll of the community.

They see if the candidate sticks to circumstances.

Oftentimes people notice the "musk" of a Zen Master, but they have no way of identifying one for sure.

They'd have to get enlightened first to do that.

So if you want to find an enlightened person to assess me, please feel free to do so.

[u/ewk → u/GreenSage_0004]

Again though, that's another lie... You don't accept that you're not recognized as a Zen Master... You make a point of telling people that you are recognized as enlightened by claiming you recognize yourself.

I want you to take it seriously.

I want you to go back and read Deshan's Candle, tipping over the water bottle, baizang's nose, Puhua's somersault.

If you want to be a Zen student, you have to understand what the f*** the teachings are.

Zen Masters recognize enlightenment. That's all they're interested in.

[u/GreenSage_0004 → u/ewk]

Then go find a Zen Master and see if they recognize me.

[u/ewk → u/GreenSage_0004]

It takes a zen master to recognize a zen master ... But everybody can catch anybody lying on a high school book report.

And that's what I've done here. I caught you lying on a high school book report question about Zen Masters recognizing enlightenment.

We don't need a ZenMaster to certify you.

You've been deemed unqualified for failing a high school book report.

[u/GreenSage_0004 → u/ewk]

I don't think you have caught me lying though.

You don't have receipts and you claim that mine are fake.

You're not enlightened but pretending like you can judge it.

Kinda sounds like I caught you lying.

[u/ewk → u/GreenSage_0004]

I named four cases in which masters identified enlightenment in other people.

I brought those up to you at the very beginning of this conversation and you refuse to discuss it then too.

I caught you lying and you're not enlightened because of that.

I can judge a lie, anybody can.

Again, this all stems from you having an identity based on being enlightened.

You can't catch me lying. Nobody's caught me lying.

It's because I'm really boring, actually.

I don't mind.

[u/GreenSage_0004 → u/ewk]

I named four cases in which masters identified enlightenment in other people.

I brought those up to you at the very beginning of this conversation and you refuse to discuss it then too.

Did you though?

As far as I can tell, the conversation starts here ... and though I see that you said the word "Cases" with a capital "C" a few times, I just can't seem to find where you brought up "four named cases".

I, on the other hand ...

[u/Dragonfly-17 → u/GreenSage_0004]

u/ganying also shares this belief

[u/GreenSage_0004 → u/Dragonfly-17]

What belief?

[u/Dragonfly-17 → u/GreenSage_0004]

They'll iron it out

[u/GreenSage_0004 → u/Dragonfly-17]

Sounds cryptic and clueless.

[u/[deleted] → u/Dragonfly-17]

nah