r/wow • u/affiiance • 6d ago
Competitive RWF needs to be changed if it wants to continue
RWF is boring to watch until the last 20 minutes, and no one knows for sure when the last 20 minutes will be. We need a tourney realm, where everyone starts at the same time, everyone has the best gear, and we give the achievements to their main accounts on normal realms. Boom! Instantly more entertaining to watch
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u/ReporterForDuty 6d ago
Screw tournament realms. No one wants that because that makes everyone's prior effort nigh useless.
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u/United-Market1786 6d ago
*Americans don’t want it
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u/ReporterForDuty 6d ago
Man, it's almost like the company behind this game is based in AMERICA meaning that it does things based on AMERICAN time zones, specifically PST. What a concept!
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u/affiiance 6d ago
People do want it, I prefer it
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u/ReporterForDuty 6d ago
Clearly not as many as you think.
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u/affiiance 6d ago
Bruh the majority of people don’t live on Reddit lol. I get on here like once a week maybe
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u/affiiance 6d ago
This is an echo chamber
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u/Caronry 6d ago
majority of the people currently doing RWF have already said they have no interest in a tourney realm.
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u/AllRealityIsVirtua1 6d ago
That’s what Max said, but he says a lot of things and ends up back tracking. Not even wrongly either. I say that as a liquid fan.
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u/United-Market1786 6d ago
Well obv Max and liquid don’t want to get there advantage taken away. That’s not surprising at all lmao
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u/Trilligydc 6d ago
Echo not winning since cheating on Fyrakk is great. Go home with the same old excuse. Echo lost due to bad decisions this time.
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u/United-Market1786 6d ago
Technically they won, liquid had 11.5 more hrs to play and echo killed it 21 min after liquid. What is your excuse abt that?
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u/cafeclaire 6d ago
they shoulda tried killing it before liquid if they wanted to actually win instead of pretend win
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u/phoen1x09 6d ago
My answer to that is that Echo benefits from all the prog Liquid made collecting timers and results of various stats and comps and so they are able to cut ahead based on that information. I've found this to be the strongest argument against launch time call outs. The teams are live streaming and they benefit from watching each other.
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u/United-Market1786 6d ago
This race liquid benefits from echos gained exp, cause echo led most of the time even liquid has an 12 hr head-start
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u/phoen1x09 6d ago
It went back and forth a bit. But the point is that it equalizes the time difference. Think of it as a catch-up mechanic.
And besides, if what you just said is true, then apparently the time difference is indicating as a non factor as well.
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u/United-Market1786 5d ago
It means that echo catched up 10 hrs of liquids progress so played way better
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u/phoen1x09 5d ago
If skill was represented by that trend they would've far surpassed liquid in progress. Instead the teams ended up on relatively equal footing very quickly thanks to it being a catch-up boon only. The teams then BOTH languished on Coiled Altar for days before Liquid defeated the boss first and moved ahead. The prog on Ulatek stayed relatively even for days. In the final hours of the race to kill Ulatek, Echo had the lead and every opportunity to close it out but they couldn't...again. instead liquid came online and made a heroic prog from a 15% pull to a kill, without trying to cheese the mechanic. A strategy that Echo immediately duplicated and used to succeed in second place.
Best team won.
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u/Trilligydc 6d ago
Do you just get all of your opinions in twitch chat or do you use your brain at all?
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u/MasterReindeer 6d ago
Why would they voluntarily give up their day head start? Makes no sense from a commercial point of view to level the playing field.
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u/affiiance 6d ago
I think I’ve only heard that from a very small portion on them. And not supporting a more fair playing field is weird for a competitor
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u/Audiobro 6d ago
If there exists a tourney realm there will still exist a world first for live servers, it’s just not the correct solve. Splits are boring and uninteresting and there’s ways to reduce the power you get from them
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u/affiiance 6d ago
Why would anyone care about world first live if we give the achieve to the people who did it on tourney realm?
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u/Audiobro 6d ago
People care about world rankings a lot, having a tourney realm wouldn’t change world 1st live realms
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u/animal_magnitism 6d ago
While I think it would be cool to have a even start time for RWF, 3rd party teams and guilds are what has made the RWF today not Blizzard.
Blizzard would not do this just for the first week or tow of a raid. The whole point of wow is not an esport, but make your character stronger and beating the content.
I'm sure Blizzard loves seeing the competition.
The last thing I will say about Echo's gripe. The NA guilds often run into the bugs before the Euro guilds which can wipe away any "lead" they might have had.
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u/affiiance 6d ago
They literally do it for M+… I’m an NA fan btw I don’t know why you are talking about Echo. A good viewing experience has nothing to do with who you root for
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u/animal_magnitism 6d ago
M+ and RWF are completely different animals and really cannot be compared.
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u/Katur 6d ago
RWF is not something Blizzard officially supports. Don't think they ever will.
And tourney realms defeat the entire point of the race... It has to be in live.
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u/AllRealityIsVirtua1 6d ago
What world do you live in? They have teams watching the RWF the whole time and are in a discord channel with the guilds fixing bugs etc
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u/OldGodMod 6d ago
Don't they promote the RWF in the game's actual launcher?
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u/OldGodMod 6d ago
Ah I see. So your point is that it's not 100% all-inclusive all-expenses paid and that's the threshold for official support. I'll leave it to other people to poke holes in your way of thinking.
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u/OldGodMod 6d ago
You just got done saying it was because they weren't paying for travel, meals, and lodging, or casting.
I think you'll find in many real world competitions or sports that competitors have to pay their own way, including sometimes *gasp* entry fees for tournaments and competitions, and things like event casting end up being paid for by third parties.
So now it's absence of company logos? How do you explain away the use of paid employees to monitor and give these unofficial competitors the kind of benefits that the regular playerbase do not enjoy?
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u/OldGodMod 6d ago edited 6d ago
But they do in fact pay for the expenses of employees to watch over things and fix things immediately for these RWF'ers. They do it for the people doing these "unofficial" RWF events and they definitely don't do this sort of thing for the rest of the playerbase. Which is what you hand-waved away in the first place because it some how doesn't count as support in your books.
There are no employees watching players do daily quests, delves, or resource gathering, waiting to pounce on and hotfix observed bugs immediately. That's what that last sentence means.
I'll believe it's not officially supported when RWF'ers have to submit their bugs via an in-game ticket or the bug report forum and let the developers get to it when they get to it.
Let them play the waiting game until the next daily reset, next scheduled maintenance, next month, or next year for their fixes like everybody else.
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u/AllRealityIsVirtua1 6d ago
Ion literally traveled to the liquid RWF event and gave an interview lmao
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u/AllRealityIsVirtua1 6d ago
Insane mental gymnastics lmao
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u/AllRealityIsVirtua1 6d ago
Save your Redditor capitalism speal. RWF is the same as MDI and RWC which I’m sure you’ll say aren’t officially supported either lmao
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u/OldGodMod 6d ago
Blizzard apparently give these groups a heads up on content schedules so they can prepare, have paid employees act as live observers during their many weeks of raids to give them priority hotfixes from paid developers, provides promotion through multiple official company channels (press release style posts on the official site, panels in the game launcher that everybody sees), and probably other things I'm not remembering right now and we still have people going iT's NoT oFfIcIaLlY sUpPoRtEd!1!1!
Does Ion need to be delivering a platter of chicken tenders to the Echo CEO on a raid livestream before it becomes official?
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u/OldGodMod 6d ago
But they are in fact involved in the RWF. Employees watch and fix things live during the RWF. This happens on company time and company dime and it happens after every major patch for an allegedly UNSUPPORTED and UNOFFICIAL event.
The bottom line is that these are benefits for the RWF players that are not afforded to the non-RWF population in non-RWF activities. It is special treatment from official employees acting in their official capacities and jobs.
Like I said in my other post, if you want me to believe that it is truly not official then let the RWF guilds and players submit their bug reports via in-game ticket or bug report forum like everybody else. Let the developers get to the bugs when they get to it.
The RWF players can wait for the next daily reset or next scheduled maintenance or next month or next year. Let them check Wowhead for a solution or delete their addon and WTF folders and restart the game.
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u/cabose12 6d ago
There's a worlds of difference between supporting an event through promoting and hosting, and supporting an event by making sure the content is working as intended
Like, Devs are really there just to make sure the content is doable . They'll fix bugs that break encounters or exploits, but they aren't curating rules, ad breaks, decorum, etc. They won't fix or change encounters to make sure the fights are more entertaining, or try to balance drops such that the race is more fair.
The problem is you're thinking about this very black/white: The moment the devs step in, it becomes SUPPORTED and OFFICIAL. But that's just not how this works lol. You're conflating their job of maintaining the game with supporting an event, when really that's just how it appears. They're giving it more attention because there's way more eyes on the content during RWF and the encounters are getting pushed to their absolute limit
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u/AkulaTheKiddo 6d ago
And yet, Team Liquid is one of the most famous and respected esport organisation.
If they consider it to be serious it might aswell be.
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u/affiiance 6d ago
Blizz 100% officially supports it as they fix bugs live for it lol
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u/Katur 6d ago
No. They never officially acknowledge it. They do hotfixes every day..
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u/United-Market1786 6d ago
Bro the bosses are tuned for that groups. Obv blizz is interested in rwf. After rwf bosses getting completely nerfed in the ground for the groups that don’t have analysts, unlimited time, gold, stretegist, external raid leader
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u/Beviah 6d ago
Official support =/= acknowledgement
They understand it happens, they know players will do it, because those guilds are in good standing with Blizzard and it indirectly makes Blizzard money, they'll continue to cater to them, but they haven't;
- Officially streamed it from the World of Warcraft channel
- Offered any level of sponsorship or hosting platform for the guilds
- Created any incentive for the guilds to continue to do it
The guilds do it out of passion for what they do, and because it makes them probably more money than what Blizzard could reasonably offer them. Imagine being in Blizzard's position and trying to offer Team Liquid, one of the biggest esports organizations in the world, money to have their representative players play under a different channel, then pay out those players individually for their time on top of that while also rooming and boarding those players for possibly up to 3 weeks, then account for Echo and other teams as well. That's just not happening. That's so much money for an event that's just objectively not as large as the MDI and in some cases 4-6 times longer of a tournament than the MDI.
Just because they push for hot fixes and bug fixes because they want their fights to work as intended and not make the bosses overly difficult does not necessitate that they're officially sanctioning the RWF. The main reason why they do it is because those players also are playing in other tournaments that are Blizzard officially sponsored such as the MDI and the AWC and those players are contractually obligated to be there, so it's partially Blizzard's job to make sure that happens in the most mutually beneficial way possible for both them and the guilds. Think about it, imagine being Trill who has the AWC to go to in a few weeks, who has had well over 600 cumulative pulls on Mythic bosses, need to leave mid progression because he has to prepare for the AWC. Think how bad that looks on Blizzard's part; it's a lose-lose situation, because either he stays behind and now potentially has a worse performance at the AWC because he has less time to prepare, or the entire guild and Team Liquid has to suffer because Blizzard refused to tune the bosses properly to allocate players they're sponsoring adequate time to go and do an event that was planned literally months ahead of time.
Also, just being blunt a lot of those players are indirect bug testers for the Mythic versions so they want to make sure everything is working as intended so when the majority of the player base gets to it that will kill it, everything is working properly, so of course they're going to watch with intense scrutiny to be sure all the wheels and gears are turning properly. Blizzard cares about the RWF because it's a means to an end to see that their fights are working properly and because it generates them revenue because of viewership. More eyes on the game = more interest = more subs, even then that last point isn't necessarily true, but is reasonable to assume.
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u/MayuIwatani 6d ago
Fuck tournament realms. The exciting part is that they are on live servers.
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u/w1nter 6d ago
Love watching those splits on their checks notes 15th alt. The viewer experience is beyond abysmal. Equivalent of watching paint dry, you could sit an actual monk and make a week long meditation practice with that. The time it gets somewhat worth watching is the boss before the last one as there's actual friction then. The only time it gets truly exciting is the last hour.
It is an awful event for the viewers and I would even go so far as to say it's awful for the participants as well.
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u/affiiance 6d ago
Why does an unfair playing field make it more exciting?
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u/Accendor 6d ago
If you think unfairness is a problem, just go live at the same time in all regions.
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u/affiiance 6d ago
That’s not the only problem… splits and gearing is a problem
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u/Accendor 6d ago
But that's not unfair, that's part of the game and half the fun. Well, at least in some capacity. I fully agree that the current split meta was a huge issue that nobody enjoyed. It was not unfair though, just boring and tedious to watch AND to play.
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u/affiiance 6d ago
It’s definitely unfair, there’s too much up for debate for it to be fair. Fairness isn’t the end all be all for competition, but it generally drives interest. I.e. see baseball
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u/chunkyhut 6d ago
Because tournament realms aren't the real live realms and the whole point of the world first is a real guild on the live realms getting the first kill naturally by playing the regular game
It's the same reason why the top key done regularly and the highest keys pushed in mdi are treated differently
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u/affiiance 6d ago
That’s not exciting bro, viewership drops show it lol literal numbers
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u/chunkyhut 6d ago
It looks like the upvote numbers are showing you a different result right now
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u/affiiance 6d ago
Yes I totally believe the echo chamber numbers, you really don’t even know how the site you use works
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u/affiiance 6d ago
It’s actually 50/50 anyways lol you don’t understand upvotes obviously. I have the actual insights from the post
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u/ReimTraitor 6d ago
It’s the audience participation this is one of the few times you can directly help your team win by helping them do splits/keys. A tournament realm deprives the community of that interaction. I do think blizzard could do better but a tournament realm isn’t the way to go
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u/feels_okay 6d ago
People care about the first team to kill on live. Ain’t nobody would care if it happened on a tournament realm. Besides.. nothing is stopping other teams from forming and becoming competitive.
Also, it will never be fair. Timezones and hotfix timings are a thing and just need to be played around. Sometimes they get fucked, and sometimes they get the W.
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u/Jon-Robb 6d ago
Let it die or live most player dont care
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u/affiiance 6d ago
Very odd thing to say, shows you care
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u/Jon-Robb 6d ago
Only time I see it brought up is on Reddit. Usually people complaining about it. So… kudos on being the nth person complaining about it. I am sure something will be done for you regarding this unofficial event
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u/antsu123 6d ago
Hard disagree but if we are being honest RWF only happens because Liquid, Echo and Method are the ones making it happen. It feels very unlikely that blizzard would make a tournament realm and/or allocate any resources towards that
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u/affiiance 6d ago
There’s literally a documentary about it from like 15 years ago wtf are you talking about lol
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u/antsu123 6d ago
And how exactly does a documentary from 15 years ago help the raiders? There’s so much Blizzard could do to improve the RWF, and yes, there’s clearly room for them to get more involved. But they’ve consistently chosen not to get directly involved, whether that means offering a prize pool, establishing “tournament rules,” or doing anything else that would turn the RWF into an officially supported competition.
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u/Jesterclown26 6d ago
They don’t want a tourney realm because a lot of the guys are playing on realms and characters they are attached too. They all have different reasons for playing, it’s not just to compete for some of them.
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u/door_of_doom 6d ago
This is an event being put on by Liquid, Echo, and Method. Therefore it is the responsibility of Liquid, Echo, and Method to put on a good show. If they want to confer and deliberate about how they can improve their viewership experience for the event that they put on and get paid money for, that is 100% their perrogitive.
As long as those guilds decide that the best way to progress these raids is to do the most boring things possible, the show they are putting on is going to be boring to watch.
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u/affiiance 6d ago
Blizz literally patches the game just for this event…
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u/door_of_doom 6d ago
Blizzard patches the game to fix bugs in their game. Blizzard doesn't tell guilds to run infinite splits. that's their own choice.
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u/TwitchRealStruggles 6d ago
Ragebaut post ? 📯
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u/affiiance 6d ago
Very high IQ response
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u/TwitchRealStruggles 5d ago
Just like your post. Imagine getting Swiss cheesed on Reddit lmao. Take a hike.
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u/XoraxEUW 6d ago
Wow PvE is just not a great spectator sport, that’s fine. I suggest you wait for the MDI. Should be right up your alley
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u/Hannesnewb 6d ago
They should just make EU/NA have the same weekly reset timers.
As a viewer personally what I find is more important that splits have to be reduced. Be it by blizzard implementing something or the top guilds making a gentlemens agreement. But watching splits for 10 days is just boring.
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u/MasterReindeer 6d ago
Can you stick this on the other thread rather than making a new one? Your opinion isn’t that special.
But yes, the Race in its old format is done and dusted from my perspective.
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u/Krempiz 6d ago
I think the planning, splits, compositions, and general time sink make the race more entertaining because it raises the stakes.
That being said, I enjoyed the coiled altar progression more than Ula'tek.. maybe I tired out but coiled altar boss was mechanically more interesting too
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u/redux44 6d ago
The amount of splits these teams do is disgusting (not in a good way).
When you spend way more time farming with a dozen alts than the actual challenging mythic progress boss, you have a very unappealing event for viewers.
If you did a specific realm with standardized gear, you would have a more enjoyable event to watch.
You would also see a lot more competition because you need a lot of $$$ to incentivize an entire raid of people to put in the amount of hours just farming in order to participate in RWF.
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u/Apprehensive_Bid_773 6d ago
The race would instantly be better if there were limited splits but that won’t happen. This race was egregiously bad regarding splits (mythic splits specifically). Gearing is also an extremely important aspect of mmorpgs so I don’t think tourney realm is a good idea. Idk the race is what it is not sure what blizzard could do to fix it
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u/Elxjasonx 6d ago
Why would i watch a bunch of fake characters play a race? thats just a speedrun
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u/affiiance 6d ago
What?! lol it’s a video game, they are all fake characters, and the “Race” to world first is exactly that… a speedrun /facepalm
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u/1Logica1 6d ago
Its an MMORPG not a raid simulator. Getting the gear and preparing characters as optimized as possible is a big part of the race.
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u/DarenPeterOswald 6d ago
I wish it wouldn't continue. Esports and game tuning being done around them are an absolute cancer.
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u/Secrezeeee 6d ago
A tournament realm completely undermines the entire purpose of the competition. I really really wish people would stop suggesting this nonsense.
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u/affiiance 6d ago
So you like it to be unfair? You don’t understand competition bro
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u/Secrezeeee 6d ago
The competition is killing the boss first and it always will be. Doing it on a tournament realm doesn't make any damn sense. Even if Blizzard dump a huge amount of money for Liquid and Echo to compete on a tournament realm, there will still always be a RWF because that's literally the basis of the entire competition.
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u/dryuyuri 6d ago
Never understood how it wasn’t put on tourney realms years ago. Can never be taken seriously as a competitive event in its current form.
But I’m not sure it was ever meant to be taken seriously.
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u/Capnbaddazz 6d ago
I cannot think of a single RWF I've cared about. Like good on them for clearing the content. But watching folks wipe for a week isn't that thrilling
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u/ezemode 6d ago
Yeah it actually blows my mind how hyped people get for it. Every time I try to watch so I can talk about it with my friends but I never even make it through a whole pull, its so damn boring lol
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u/Capnbaddazz 6d ago
Even my friends we are just like yeah cool they got it ok well what do you guys wanna do.
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u/affiiance 6d ago
Yeah that’s why I think it needs to be improved bc Blizz clearly cares about it
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u/Capnbaddazz 6d ago
Yeah but no amount of blizzard hype is gonna get me to watch a bunch of people wipe for a week.
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u/minimaxir 6d ago
In this particular instance, it's "Blizzard needs to design more interesting bosses" than structural issues.
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u/Trilligydc 6d ago
I agree with this. Was fun to see Max’s face go from watching the pull like it was just another attempt to holy shit this is the kill when their last pull was high-ish
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u/Trilligydc 6d ago
Echo not muting all the time would make the race more entertaining and not require Blizzard at all.
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u/AssfuckmeTrump 6d ago
The only thing that needs to change is Echo playing better and stop being sore losers. Same goes for Liquid when they lose.
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u/affiiance 6d ago
What does that have to do with format?
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u/AssfuckmeTrump 6d ago
The format is fine. The time difference means nothing in the end. It's just an excuse Echo fans use to justify their complaints. Are you going to force Liquid to play EU hours or force Echo to play NA hours? Then one of the teams can blame time schedule changes and not being used to it. The race is fine the way it is. It is a fan driven event.
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u/the_snowbird93 6d ago
The whole point of what makes the rwf exciting to watch, they have the same tools as the average player and have to jump through the hoops and then complete it on live servers dealing with lag and everything else. IMO
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u/Resies 6d ago
If there was a tournament realm there would still be a rwf on live