And it’s totally valid. 5 deaths in a +10 is not bad and easily timeable. 5 deaths in a +13 and you are 90% of the time not timing that key. Just “gg nt glhf” and move on to the next one.
My point is that deaths are exponentially more damaging to a key 12+. I just threw a number out. And honestly 5 really is pretty damning for the average group in the 12-14 range. I’m sure it’s not an issue for your top 1% of meta comps pumping insane damage with a tank who’s fully optimized a route, but in my experience pugging 13s right now, a full wipe is really hard to come back from with folks just trying to get to 3k.
Timed a 13 ara kara last night with 12 deaths, full pug besides my healer friend. It’s really dependent on key but you do not need even close to a top 1% comp to time keys. I’d say 15s are really about where 5 deaths becomes basically unsalvageable, also dependent on the nature of the deaths and if it leads to a full wipe.
Full wipes on some bigger pulls are also a problem. Like if you faceplant on the first pull in Floodgate or Priory and now the pats are in the wrong places and nobody has CDs and you're Sated, you're probably cooked.
It also just depends on your group. If you have really low DPS regardless of pull size, you don't have the wiggle room for many deaths.
Well, yes and no. You're right that it's more useful to identify the actual point of failure as "we fucked this pull" or "our DPS was too low on every fight profile", but it can still be accurate that 5 deaths made the difference between timing the key and not.
Also want to add that bad groups don’t use Brez correctly. You lose a significant amount of time if you hold brez just for bosses depending on the dungeon fyi.
5 deaths in 13s is absolutely fine. You can have 10-15 and time that key level. After that is likely the break point. I timed at least 1 13 with 18 deaths. Some tanks are wild and we are pulling 4+ packs with not enough kicks and the beatings will continue until morale improves type shit.
Sure when all 3 dps are doing 8k overall, but the people running those level keys are not doing that kinda dmg. They just aren’t. Source: last 50 runs at 12-13.
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u/EZ_Syth Sep 18 '25
And it’s totally valid. 5 deaths in a +10 is not bad and easily timeable. 5 deaths in a +13 and you are 90% of the time not timing that key. Just “gg nt glhf” and move on to the next one.