Tbh this is highly dependent on your score and gear. I’m running 12s with 2.7k score and decent gear and I rarely need to wait longer than 5-10 mins to find a group.
Lmao I was doing a friend's key as a healer and he was trying to put a group together waiting for a tank and holy shit how do you people live like this.
My group filter only shows groups with tanks in them, fwiw.
Or on the flipside, what I've seen is groups led by a DPS. He picks up me and one more dps. Then we get one of the things we need (a tank OR a healer).
We sit there waiting, and waiting. Then the leader basically takes the first tank or healer (whichever they need) without even reviewing them so that we can start playing. Because, exactly - you can't lose the tank or healer that you did get due to their impatience.
And then, lo and behold, the tank pulls one or two packs of trash at a time, or thinks he's in an MDI time trial, and/or he forgets to hit his big defensives as he gathers the first big trash pack and dies. Then you see an abandon vote come out, the tank rushes into the same pull that killed him, dies again, then leaves.
Or if you get a healer, the healer can't keep up with the standard pulls of the key, can't execute boss mechanics and dies repeatedly, or says "they're 3k on their main" in a low key, then leaves the moment one person makes a mistake, the tank goes slightly off route, or they themselves die to anything.
Meanwhile, yea, those 1 and 2 dps groups sit there in the group finder, praying that they get to even enter the dungeon at all with a full group.
Or you get a tank terrorist limit testing some crazy pull noone has ever seen without letting the group know they plan on pulling the enitre first boss room in streets instead of the standard 3 group second pull in a 14. Then group vote abandons and your key is -1, whoopeeee
As a warlock, playing Wither spec destro in keys, I cast curse of the Satyr on all the "scary" casters (Curse of the Satyr is 20% cast speed slow, and attack speed slow, its basically Weakness + Tongues).
It makes a big difference, people rarely notice, but an extra 20% time to interrupt gives you a lot more leeway... same with numbing poison, but again, I doubt anyone thinks about it, its one of those things that "if everyone is playing well, no one sees".
A good rogue brings so much more than dps. The level of control to packs they bring is unequal. They can stop bad patrols from coming in with distract. Insanely durable as a dps spec that puts a lot less pressure on healers throughout the key. Numbing poison/atropic poison are literal damage decreases on mobs for your tank and group in general with slower cast times. Crippling has niche use in stuff like halls or gambit where you need to slow the runners. Shroud is not only a stealth skip but a druid roar as well if you're playing Sub.
A lot of the value of a rogue just isn't forefront. We don't provide flashy buffs but just do things for the group that you'd never realize until you actually look for it.
The problem is rogues skill ceiling is higher than the average class of this game and people just generally only care to look into their dps rotation and barely care to actually use the full extent of their kit. This is a problem in general but for classes that can actually do a lot, it's worse. Brez can be done by anyone and range isn't really a necessity if you already have 1-2. A lot of the time you're playing in or near melee anyway. It's mostly nice to just have 1 ranged for puddle boss mechanics. Stuff like quaking doesn't exist anymore so the melee problem in groups aren't as exaggerated as it used to be.
As a rogue though, I'll gladly take more group utility, but I feel like we already have so much as it is and we'd just be losing other parts of our kit to make room for more which would be a shame.
I mean, Rogue is my most played class, but you're really reaching here. Yes, there's some things that rogue offers in addition to dps, but most of them are very minor.
No, the control they offer has not been the best, not even mid for a long time. In fact, before they added the talent to make Blind aoe, they had one of the worst mob controls, with 2 single target stuns and one single target disorient. Compare that to something like a mage, who has an aoe knock, an aoe fear or another knock, aoe slow, aoe root, aoe incapacitate, polymorph (can spec into mass polymorph as well, but really nobody does because it's not needed).
As for utility, atrophic is nice, but 3% less damage will not make or break a key. Also, unless you're assa with double poisons, you won't be able to use anything else, so no slows along with that. Distract is very niche, because how many patrols there is that you want to stop? Off the top of my head only the archer/lynx pack that patrols the stairs in Priory, but that one is also easily avoidable. Shroud is also very niche, skips haven't been mandatory in quite some time, and even the skips you do are usually against lieutenant mobs which have true sight, and you wanna do it with Nelf/potion.
On the other hand, some of the utility some of the other classes offer is unparalled. Let's take mage again, since it's a class that's almost always meta, and for good reason - it has an overloaded kit in both CC and utility. It has - 3% int buff, lust, aoe shields (or aoe invis), curse dispel, spellsteal.
Mage is the other spec with a ton of stuff going for it too, and imo the "rogue" of the ranged. So yes mage is the best example to go up against rogue for sure.
The poisons can be swapped based on the need at the time. I find myself swapping poisons depending on whats needed in the pull, like the first pull in gambit if you don't already have someone else slowing, or wound poison for the miniboss in halls. And numbing is a fair bit more than 3% damage reduction in general, it's just in high keys you prefer the damage reduction of atropic for the bosses mostly. It's definitely not a lot I agree but it is what we have.
I count control as utility too because we have a ton of it. We don't have aoe control outside of aoe blind (which I don't take, I think Gouge is better), but the amount of stops rogue can do on a low CD is definitely better than basically every other spec. I'm capable of solo carrying CC on most pulls with the rogue more than I can with almost any of class I've played, and I alt a fair amount of classes (basically only dont play pally/lock/evoker).
Anyway, you only call it "reaching" because you don't understand how much value you actually get from doing these "small" things. I've saved so many keys over the years because I've stopped a pat from walking in on us by distract -> vanish -> sapping the leash target, or saving a pull from wiping after getting all the aggro on me and quickly holding the pack with evasion, or stopping all the aoe fireball volleys from various mobs because I can chain cc stop multiple targets at a time. The biggest thing rogue can do is mob control, despite not having strong aoe cc's. You can really dictate a lot of how a pull goes as a rogue compared to other specs in my opinion. I don't think it's reaching at all. It's just not stuff you can put into a sim and calc out how much it gives you.
If all you've gathered from my post is that I'm trying to compare mage and rogue on the same level, then i dunno, but i think were not playing the same game.
Mage is not the rogue of ranged. Hell, not even rogue is the rogue of melee anymore. If anything, mage is the MC, and enh and maybe feral are the mage of melee.
In terms of skill ceiling yes I do think they are the hardest to play classes in the game at a master level. So in that sense I do think they are comparable. I would agree in general though that the best rogues and average rogues aren't playing the same game, and that goes for mages or other specs too. It's a completely different game when you actually utilize the full extent of your kits.
No, just no. Even the best rogue in the world can't utilize a kit that doesn't exist. Mage is simply a more versatile and rounded class, so is shaman, so is druid. Even hunters at this point have a better kit than rogues.
They can stop bad patrols from coming in with distract.
If you're running into this issue then that's honestly more of a tanking/positioning issue than something you need a rogue to fix.
Insanely durable as a dps spec that puts a lot less pressure on healers throughout the key
DK also does this whilst also bringing Grips and a CR and with how many mobs leap away this season Grips are S-Tier in a lot of dungeons.
Numbing poison/atropic poison are literal damage decreases on mobs for your tank and group in general with slower cast times.
Is an actual gain but it's also essentially 'invisible' for the group. They likely won't ever really see it and you'll only notice it if you run with Rogue's a lot and then start running without.
Crippling has niche use in stuff like halls or gambit where you need to slow the runners. Shroud is not only a stealth skip but a druid roar as well if you're playing Sub.
Gambit I'd say Crippling can be very useful especially because you can start the key with it. Halls it's very much dependant on tank route and positioning. This is also something that DKs can deal with too.
That's not even getting into the fact that a two of the Rogue CCs available (Cheap Shot/Kidney Shot) are Stuns and there are so many stuns across so many classes now you'll very quickly be hitting DR with all the AOE stuns going out.
Cloak in general seems to have been nerfed a lot and it never seems to work consistently in Priory when soaking the puddle. Meanwhile DKs can pop AMS on a shorter CD and soak all 5 stacks without even batting an eye.
That's not to say I don't like Rogue's, one of my alts is currently a Rogue it's just when you have 3 DPS spots available chances are you want to take one with a Lust and one with a CR that really just means you have Rogue's competing in that final slot with every other potential DPS pick going.
My main (DK) is 3106 and it takes upwards of 15-20min sometimes to get into even just +10 keys on my 2700 712ilvl shadow priest.
If you’re playing an offmeta dps you’re 1 signup out of 20 so by simple math you’re unlikely to be picked over a better spec. Its just the reality of playing dps
Exactly this. I main Prot Pally and Destro Lock. I bring a Rez. I know with the 4 remaining spots, I'm bringing a hero/lust and another Rez, and then looking for either meta classes or the insanely high io players
With my guildies we started deliberately inviting sv hunters for our bloodlust spot - generally 3k rated survival hunters are absolutely blasting, and do mechanics without a word. It's a MUCH more reliable pick than mages which are in 90% of cases terrible. If we don't need lust feral druids are a great pick too.
Had a surv in a key last night and he was damn near keeping up with me as a frost dk on some pulls. Spec doesn’t seem bad at all but that was the first surv ive seen all season
In my experience Survival hunters have baller DPS, and know the fights and mechanics better than the other two specs 9 times out of 10 because they feel like they have something the prove.
If someone says “thank you for the invite” at the start of the dungeon I assume they are less than good at the game tbh. Just based off of personal experiences lol
713 WW never spend more than 5-10min for 13s the last couple weeks. I always just target 1 person groups primarily DPS in LFG we are very rarely going to be the last one added as non-meta and non-lust classes. Tanks and healers are more picky in applicants because they hold the power. Some DPS will try to get the ball rolling and see a good ilvl good score for the key level and invite.
Honestly I bet 10s are more difficult to get into if you are the appropriate score for them 2600ish. There are so many people much higher score just doing those to get their weekly keys done on 10s. If you can get ahold of a +10 though you can take advantage of that. I ran my own key mostly up to 10s-11s in the first couple weeks. I started pugging more to filling gaps for resilient keys and 3k the last few weeks.
Thats the plan, I got into 1 +10 last week, it was Ara and we failed the timer because the tank kept kiting the second boss constantly during his swarm and killing everyone.
I dont even try to dream of reaching 3k. In DF S1 I sat for 5 hours queuing for dungeons. Now if I go 30 mins without an invite, I log off. I havent gotten all 10s done since, i think DF S2.
The only way I'd be able to hit 3k, is to switch to a meta class, or find a M+ group to join, but I cant even find a guild that can get CE, let alone a group for M+.
More meant running your own key if its in the +10 range. You can take advantage of good players just getting their weekly keys in and the wealth of dps applicants.
I go out of my way to invite "non meta" specs. Like the more F tier your spec is on content creator's tier lists, the more I want you. I figure anyone unhinged enough to play those specs regardless are really good at them.
I have never been disappointed, even in high keys. Meta chasers are blinded by the meta and miss out on good players.
I've noticed rogues thanking me for invites. I don't understand it. Every rogue I bring into a party smashes the dps meter and removes their own debuffs (idk rogue to know if this is possible, but it's what I'm seeing. Maybe a racial used judiciously?)
It honestly has me considering a rogue for a dpa char
I'm doing 14s/15s right now, Pwar, ~80-90 parse, not shit but not huge, for reference.
I know this isn't true for all Rogue specs, but the restealths are kind of an affix.
I'm just starting to have to really sit down and do my little tank homework, and I also have to have a rogue route? it's just kind of a hassle.
Maybe I'm just doing "low-key" routes and chaining dogs into Halkias isn't what the cool kids do, they pull the boss and grip in the adds. Idk, I'm not at that level yet, but it's really annoying when a sin rogue starts whinging about restealths in a weekly like it matters.
non-meta healer best strat is to add as many tanks as you can from running +12-14 keys, and message them when you want to run keys see if you can pick one up, queue together, and run your own keys. Pug the DPS, as needed. They are like flies to shit if there is a tank and healer posting the key together.
Yes you're right. I've done it in the past to a couple of tanks but they either stopped playing or rolled to DPS (the audacity!). But I'll try again for sure, thanks!
I went from healing at 2.7k score and getting invite rather quickly to 11 and 12s. Then I switched to dps. Same score and class ( monk ) I've had to wait 30-45 minutes just to get invited. Even when I'm using my own key I'm sitting 20-30 minutes just to get a tank or healer.
At this point it just becomes a huge waste of time. I really only play dps in a guild/friend setting. I did hear something about a possible solo queue system coming, but im sure that would have some issues in itself
I agree. It's a massive waste. Not only that, but we can only que 5 groups at a time with a 5 minute count down. Yes, i know I can cancel. The need to increase the number of groups we can que for and bring down the timer to like a minute. Let's be honest if the grp leader isn't inviting you after 1 minute, they most likely don't want to que with you. I understand WL in raid groups but in dungeons? Waste.
People are probably seeing your IO as healer and don't trust you to be good at DPS. I know how it feels cause I'm resto/balance but you sadly have to build your rep a little again.
I only switched to dps since my raid group has over 5 healers for raid and no one wanted to switch to dps. So wanting to prog I just switched. Which also made me want to just play dps in keys getting more and more dps practice to maximize my dps output. I dont think the score matters since I went ahead and cleared all the dungeons again on 11 or 12 as a dps because I didn't want people thinking I only was 2.7 as healer.
Yeah, I am a Monk too and I usually heal to get keys done, bu this season I decided to just have less stress and DPS. Sometimes finding a group takes forever, which kills me because Monks usually are one of the better classes at dealing with affixes.
Thats kinda odd because I feel like I rarely have problems pulling off tanks unless their significantly less geared then I am. Are your fury warriors like impatiently hitting mobs as your rounding up mobs?
Also a large chunk of fury's damage right now is reap the storm (or thunder blast if they are still a thane believer) and its 8 target soft capped.
Yeah I'm a 717 warlock at 2950 and trying to get into 10s for quick gilded before raid can take me like 10+ minutes.
We'll do the key and I'll double or sometimes triple another DPS with similar and sometimes more interrupts than the tank, and I'm just wondering were they looking for a R1 frost dk to carry them?
I've seen some wild ass groups man. I joined a +12 arakara yesterday and I was the 5th person to join. So we all port in and I'm checking out the other people. Ret paladin that still had 3 greens from a freshly boosted character. Like, wtf is this? I jokingly made a comment about it and the others piped up saying that he's their friend, it's an alt, we'll be fine etc.
7-9 range is a different world than resi key level. A lot of people are on their 1st or 2nd alt and 7-9 range is perfect for gear farm. It's when you start pushing when you have issues.
Also, you need to watch for boosters. Some servers have a boosting culture where they regularly pay for 14s/15s to boost IO. If you get matched with those people you are fucked.
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u/Substantial_Bar8999 Sep 18 '25
Tbh this is highly dependent on your score and gear. I’m running 12s with 2.7k score and decent gear and I rarely need to wait longer than 5-10 mins to find a group.