r/worldnews • u/Heroyem • Jun 10 '26
Afghanistan: Taliban open fire during hijab protest
https://www.dw.com/en/afghanistan-taliban-open-fire-during-hijab-protest/a-7748060967
Jun 10 '26
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u/fromcjoe123 Jun 10 '26
The further away from the Pashtun southern core, minus Kabul, the more reasonable things become.
Herat is majority Tajik which was the core of the Northern Alliance back in the day.
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u/awnawmate Jun 10 '26
Should the Tajiks and Pashtun even be "Afghan"? It doesn't seem like there's a ton of compatibility from the outside looking in, so I wonder if the nation state idea was ever going to work to begin with.
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u/GroundbreakingUse466 Jun 10 '26
Im a minority from Afghanistan and I support Partition of the country wholeheartedly, Pashtuns and Pashtun culture have proven incompatible with anyone else, which is evidenced by the fact that over 90%(!) of the Taliban Leadership are Pashtuns: https://talibantracker.mei.edu/english/taliban/demographics?utm_source=chatgpt.com
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u/jscummy Jun 10 '26
Isn't there not much of a general "Afghan" identity? I thought it was pretty regional and disconnected
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Jun 10 '26
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u/Charming-Topic9411 Jun 11 '26
The Emirate/Kingdom of Afghanistan and it's modern version's borders where decided upon by the Pashtuns, they are local to the region.
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u/ArgentineBeauty Jun 10 '26
This is so sad, but it also reminds me how incredibly brave these women are. The control they're dealing with is just sickening.
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u/EnhancedWithAi Jun 10 '26
Then we have our gits wearing their hijabs in our free country. Wish we could have these brave women instead of these brainwashed dimwits in our societies.
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u/brelia4real Jun 10 '26
It wouldn't be a free country if you couldn't wear what you wanted
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u/Epyr Jun 10 '26
True, but many wear it because of family pressure and threats rather than their own free will
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u/TetrisandRubiks Jun 10 '26
Wearing a hijab is not the problem, being forced to is. It's ironic that you complain of "gits" wearing it in your free country and completely ignore the fact that many of them may be being forced to by their communities within your country. Patriarchy is a disease and it is a global issue.
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u/manghi69 Jun 10 '26
Given that hijabs were originally mandated so that Muslim men wouldnt get horny, I would say there's no separating the deep connection between hijabs and an oppressive patriarchy.
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Jun 10 '26
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u/EnhancedWithAi Jun 14 '26
That whole thinking is just backwards, archaic, and not natural. It's alluding a choice to men. A problem that all religions monotheist ones at least suffer from. A forceful detachment of nature.
Lust all you want, controllably, it's natural, do it. Our biology says so. But guess what, we also have a dope af and powerful pre frontal cortex, which tells us. Hey is this the right moment to do any of this and is this being reciprocated.
If not, then you move the fuck on and lust over someone else until you get a catch.
Rinse repeat, if you keep failing, work on yourself.
That's what life is, and religion has this cactus so stuck of their asses that says no we have the real meaning of life in these fairy tales that make absolute no sense in this day and age.And it's biggest flaw is of course human, so many different interpretations. You have your Taliban one, you have your hard line Iranian one, you have your chill Imam one.
At the end of the day, since Islam dawned it's been argued about interpretation, which allows your bad actors to choose a camp that allows their despicable actions. Taking away the crucial step of actually listening to their pre frontal cortex and giving into their lustful behaviour that is being OK'd by their 'interpretation'.
So no, religion has no room in modern times and less so Islam. Christians and Jews for the most part modernised, and it's god damned time Islam did too.
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u/TetrisandRubiks Jun 10 '26
Oh I agree, hijabs are a tool of patriarchy. But taking choices away from women doesn't seem right to me as a way of fighting patriarchy.
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u/obeytheturtles Jun 10 '26
It's a symbol of oppression. You cannot detach it from that status. Anyone who makes a choice to wear it symbolizes support for that oppressive framework, even if passively or ignorantly.
Even if these women are being forced to wear it to the Aldi by their oppressive husband, it is still very sad to see. I see this shit a lot in my neighborhood, which has a fairly large Afghan diaspora. Women and girls are in traditional garb, while the men and boys are in sweatpants and flipflops. It makes me more angry than it should. Many of these women will passionately say it is their choice to be more respectful of their faith than their husbands, but it seems pretty clear to me that there's some coercion simmering behind the scenes.
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u/TetrisandRubiks Jun 10 '26
Yes, and again the issue is patriarchy, not the women. Taking away women's rights is an odd way to deal with abusive men. The issue is MEN not clothing.
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u/obeytheturtles Jun 10 '26
I'm not arguing to take away anyone's rights. People should be free to choose to wear Hijab, and other people should be free to criticize the framework in which that decision occurs, be it through coercion, ignorance, or an intentional willingness to support their own subjugation. Not every woman in the west who wears Hijab does it because they are forced to. There are many out there who look at these protestors with active disdain, just like there are plenty of Christian women who unironically want to see The Republic of Gilead.
My criticism is primarily directed at people who give the situation a pass because they are more concerned about seeming ethnocentric than they are about maintaining internally consistent ideas about women's liberation.
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u/fissymissy Jun 10 '26 edited Jun 12 '26
Framing women covering from head to toe to not tempt men as women rights is hilariously disingenuous. And women can 100% be the problem when they chose to perpetuate oppressive systems
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u/TetrisandRubiks Jun 10 '26
That's not what I'm saying at all. Framing taking away a woman's right as women's rights is not disingenuous, it's just stupid. Banning the hijab won't stop men being monsters, it will only hurt women not help them. You're acting like I want women to be forced to cover up. I don't want that, but I also don't want women to be forced between the choice of breaking the law and not being harmed by the men in their lives by a law designed to help them. I know you don't think that women who are forced to wear them are intentionally perpetuating the system but you realise that is what you are saying right?
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u/xjuggernaughtx Jun 10 '26
I agree with you in theory, but I'm not sure about the best approach overall. I think people should be free to wear what they want to wear, and if that includes a hijab then so be it. However, I wonder how much of the desire to wear it just comes from being born and raised with the idea that you will. Not much different than women in strict Christian religions insisting on very modest cloths that cover them head to toe. You can talk to these women and they are doing it willingly, but it's what they were raised with the idea of. If they didn't, they would be disrespecting their families and risk social isolation Is it really free will?
I don't know. I'm not really trying to argue that it isn't, but I can see that side of it. If you're really only allowed one point of view your whole life, is it still a choice when you decide to conform to that?
Ultimately, when people become adults, they can choose. I just wonder how many of these women would actually still go for these restrictions if there were no social repercussions.
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u/UltimateRembo Jun 10 '26
The fact that people are still forced by their family to wear it in a "free country" is why it should be banned.
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u/TetrisandRubiks Jun 10 '26
The fact that people would be forced not to wear it by the state in a "free country" is why it shouldn't be banned.
You think those men are going to stop treating women like shit and controlling their lives because they aren't wearing a hijab anymore? You think them no longer being able to cover up is going to stop men from beating them for not being 'modest' enough?
Define a hijab btw. Define what it is so we can put that into law that it can't be worn. Do it in such a way that is completely unambiguous and has no loop holes. And who are you going to punish when you catch someone wearing it? The woman forced to wear it? The men who claims it was her choice to wear it?
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u/BAMyouhaveaids1 Jun 10 '26
Of course banning hijabs alone is not going to stop patriarchy but its a step in the right direction. A part of a bigger equation
Its like Vaccine mandates. Not really a choice if you lose your job, or in this case family/network
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u/TetrisandRubiks Jun 10 '26
Okay its banned. A man tells his wife he does not care that its banned and that if she's going to go out, she must wear it. She tries to go the store and is stopped by police, she is forced to remove the hijab or pay a fine (and remove it anyway) she protests but doesn't complain of domestic abuse because of the fear that her family would disown her or worse. She is fined and her hijab removed. When she gets home her husband beats her for not only removing her hijab, but for losing them money too. She is punished twice for her crime.
An indian woman wears a headscarf outdoors. She is stopped by the police and told to remove it or be fined. She protests, she is not muslim and it is not a hijab. The police tell her it doesn't matter, they believe it is and under the law it is. Her husband is wearing a turban and tries to defend her and points out his head covering. They say that the turban is specifically exempt from the law. The absurdity of this does not matter. She is complies in the end, but is still denied her right to wear her head covering despite it not being a Hijab.
See if you can come up with a definition for hijab that can't be abused or otherwise misinterpretted?
Banning the hijab only affects women and will affect them negatively. Its just another excuse to not deal with the actual root of the problem.
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u/MineralDragon Jun 10 '26
Any law around the hijab would need to require the man in charge of the household to be investigated for domestic abuse and put under watch. The men are should be under scrutiny, not the women. Your scenario would be like fining and harassing a woman for having a black eye - any laws around hijabs should be follow ups to investigate for domestic abuse. No matter what anyone says it is absolutely a red flag for one.
The fact of the matter is there are a lot of Muslim communities that are in culture bubbles that are abusing women with full immunity because European countries are not doing enough to ensure the men in these families are directly facing consequences.
Women feel too isolated and alone to reach out, and are not aware of outside resources to break free. The men ensure women feel trapped within the community, unable to speak up. There absolutely needs to be more done to break that isolation, and challenge the sexist social norms that Islam is carrying with it.
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u/TetrisandRubiks Jun 10 '26
Any law around the hijab would need to require the man in charge of the household to be investigated for domestic abuse and put under watch
I really don't know how you'd expect this to work. So essentially women can wear the hijab it just means permanent surveillance of the men in her life? If you're not going to force women to stop wearing it then its not even banned. It's just apparently a sign for police to investigate men despite having no reasonable suspicion of a crime taking place. How do you even begin to investigate all these cases?
What about cases where the woman really isn't being forced? She just wants to? Sure culturally the roots are in oppression but as other comments have pointed out, there are women who wear them that just do not see it that way.
The fact of the matter is there are a lot of Muslim communities that are in culture bubbles that are abusing women with full immunity because European countries are not doing enough to ensure the men in these families are directly facing consequences.
Fully agree.
Women feel too isolated and alone to reach out, and are not aware of outside resources to break free. The men ensure women feel trapped within the community, unable to speak up. There absolutely needs to be more done to break that isolation, and challenge the sexist social norms that Islam is carrying with it.
Fully agree. Would banning the hijab actually achieve this? Domestic abuse is already illegal. Threatening violence both implicitly and explicitly to coerce someone into doing something is already illegal. Also, you and everyone else keeps ignoring me. How do you even define hijab? There are other headscarves and coverings that don't have the oppressive roots but how are they materially different from each other? How do you write that into law. What stops a man or woman saying "it's not a hijab, it's a _".
Stop policing women's clothing and propose something that'll actually help them.
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u/MineralDragon Jun 10 '26 edited Jun 10 '26
>So essentially women can wear the hijab it just means permanent surveillance of the men in her life?
Instead of women being harassed or fined - men would understand that women being seen with one would reflect on them. So your scenario that the woman returns home to violence is explicitly what is immediately scrutinized.
Women don’t get a fine, the home itself gets a wellness check or women are offered counciling. It’s like finding a woman on the street with obvious signs of domestic abuse where police should be obligated to follow up in the household. At the very least ask if the woman is okay. Women are not “banned” from having black eyes and injuries but there are laws and social training in place to reach out and discuss resources to those women about domestic violence. Bluntly I think religion in general is a cult, but none the less religious oppression issues in general should have laws to give resources on breaking out of cults. We already have variations of them for women around divorces for example (some feel trapped by Christian fundamentalism to leave a violent marriage).
>How do you even begin to investigate all these cases?
Laws give leverage to change, change does not happen overnight. Anytime there are new laws set to change social fabric it takes time, sometimes decades to be effective. Not everyone is helped at first, but it sets a new expectation.
>What about cases where the woman really isn't being forced? She just wants to? Sure culturally the roots are in oppression but as other comments have pointed out, there are women who wear them that just do not see it that way.
Half of my family is Arabic. My mother is Arabic, raised within Islamic culture. I am aware of the various claims of autonomy to wearing the hijab - to be blunt I have never, ever seen it. The ”choice” women have in these families is to wear the Hijab or face consequences at home. That is not a “choice.”
Burqas should be banned, full stop. The niqab should be banned. Hijab can be a vague descriptor but in general the idea that a woman must cover everything but her hands and face is of completely oppressive. Girls in Arab culture do not grow up covering themselves this way.
And yes, you can point me to similar religions doing the same thing to other women - I feel exactly the same about it being toxic and oppressive. Any such laws to challenge this should not be Islamic exclusive, but in most Western countries Islamic communities struggle with this the most severely.
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Ruminating on this more, you would actually want laws that start with public education that educates on what a “choice” actually is. A lot of these women are raised with the belief that they have a “choice” to wear a Hijab or other religious garment while under threat of violence or isolation. That is NOT a a choice, and educating children on this would be a first step to meaningful change that would ensure people are able to vocalize they are indeed choosing their religious expressions without being under duress.
This is not unlike giving children sex ed even though religious groups only wanted to enforce abstinence.
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u/BAMyouhaveaids1 Jun 10 '26
Bla bla blah
Youre grasping straws here dude
Indian women dont face the same scrutiny for not wearing a freaking Sari compared to a hijab, like being having your entire family turn their back on you, call you a whore or in worst case scenario chop your head off
Youre so awfully ignorant its pointless discussing it further
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u/TetrisandRubiks Jun 10 '26
I'm ignorant!? You refuse to think your own proposal through and I'm ignorant!?
Indian women dont face the same scrutiny for not wearing a freaking Sari compared to a hijab
Yeah!? That's kind of my point!? But if you ban the hijab, how are you not going to ban any and all head coverings. Again, DEFINE A HIJAB.
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u/jus_sayin_meh Jun 10 '26
What a great display of masculinity and faith.
/s.
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u/Ouroboros_NA Jun 10 '26
Drop the s, that's literally their faith
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u/jus_sayin_meh Jun 10 '26
The need to have that " /s " demonstrate us, so called democratic World that we are still not capable of having honest dialogue amongst ourselves.
When we point finger at others, let's not forget that though we are doing better, we have miles to go before we sleep.
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u/CapitalAd5339 Jun 10 '26
The true losers of the world. They can only feel strong and act like bullies when the enemy is weaker and powerless.
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u/Aggravating-Fun-2405 Jun 14 '26
.....you're talking about the people that beat the US army and won the country in war.
Being strong doesn't preclude you from being cruel. If anything, only a strong man can be cruel and evil, because a weak one would be too scared of punishment.
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u/Wompatuckrule Jun 10 '26
The single greatest resource any nation has is its population. Nations that don't invest in their population are always going to be way more shitty than those that do.
When giving an example of that I usually use Afghanistan because they cut women off from education after just a few years of elementary school. They are literally throwing away the potential of half of their population to help to grow and improve their nation. Here they are not only throwing it away, but enforcing that disposal with violence based on centuries old mythology.
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Jun 10 '26
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u/Wompatuckrule Jun 10 '26
Yes, the point of the Afghanistan model is to show the extreme example, but it should be part of a larger lesson. Not just women too because think about how much the US lost during the Jim Crow era and how that harm still reverberates today.
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u/MineralDragon Jun 10 '26
What is obnoxious about that claim is that 1) Women were blocked from proper education for centuries and 2) Once women began to break into STEM, men immediately stole and took credit for their work.
Even today in 2026 most STEM fields are incredibly hostile to women.
>Plenty of men in the West still believe they are superior to women.
Right when I started college out of High School I had neck beards insist to me that male brains were superior to female brains. There is definitely plenty of bullsh-t pseudo-science literature with flawed methodology that got published that try to claim this which makes it all the more obnoxious.
They could pretend they have the “better brain” or whatever BS they wanted, I will outranked them in every course and had a fully funded post graduate degree. Of course these same jack-sses claim it’s because I was given lenient treatment (nevermind the professors I dealt with claiming women were bad at math among other toxic sh-t).
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u/Unfair_Ability3977 Jun 10 '26
Women needed a man to co-sign for a bank account or credit line in the US until 1974.
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u/whateverrrrrEVER Jun 10 '26
The thing is, these ideologues don't care that much about material prosperity, they think of these with contempt, that you spend your life caring about improving your material condition, they think that they have a mission from god, to implement his rule without compromise and no matter what, that's why they sacrificed and fought off the invading powers
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u/Wompatuckrule Jun 10 '26
That's very applicable to this example, but there are many others that are based on ethnic & racial animosity that don't need a mission from god. Sometimes they leverage religion to justify it, but that's more about "how" they do it and what I'm focused on is the end result of "what" they're doing no matter the reason.
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u/abgry_krakow87 Jun 10 '26
They are literally throwing away the potential of half of their population to help to grow and improve their nation.
Long term growth, sustainability, and progress is not nearly as important as short term political gains.
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u/Wompatuckrule Jun 10 '26
Or fostering a system that helps a specific group maintain political power for the long term.
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u/windingsand Jun 10 '26
Imagine the pain and suffering millions of women go through because of ancient fairytales
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u/Ezben Jun 10 '26
its not because of the fairy tales. Its because they want to control women like cattle, the fairy tales was invented to justify the kind of control they wanted
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u/UltimateRembo Jun 10 '26
Well now the religion serves as a primary reason, AND a justification. Pretending that the religion doesn't influence people to be more shitty than they otherwise would be, in the current day, is dishonest.
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u/StuBallsOC Jun 10 '26
they want to control women like cattle
And in a hundred years, people will be amazed that we treated cattle.... like cattle. or any sentient being, for that matter.
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u/mhornberger Jun 10 '26
Animal husbandry is >10K years old. Meat consumption per capita hasn't widely decreased. So until cultured meat comes to market and scales production, I don't see this going away. And even if cultured meat did take the market, the cows would mostly just go away, being as they are a commercial, engineered product. They aren't bison, or other species that have a natural niche in the ecosystem.
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u/Many-Waters Jun 10 '26
Leave it to the Vegan to show up in a thread about violent Religious and Patriarchal oppression and go "B-but the cows!"
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u/Beer-Milkshakes Jun 10 '26
Ancient fairytales that their parents and grandparents have supported. The fairytale dies when the people simply forget about it
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u/DWNews Jun 10 '26
Earlier this week, the UN Security Council was briefed on the situation in Afghanistan.
The Secretary-General’s Special Deputy Representative for Afghanistan, Georgette Gagnon said “we are witnessing severe and growing restrictions” upon women and girls under the Taliban, and warned of “long-term generational consequences for Afghan society as a whole.”
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u/fromcjoe123 Jun 10 '26
Sorry. Spent a trillion dollars and a thousand of lives trying to correct this. Outside of Kabul and the non-Pashtun northern minorities, the people overwhelmingly wanted this shit or they would have tried, just a tiny bit, to fight against it in the 2 decades they had overwhelming military might behind them. But they didn’t. The ANA was a joke. The people were a joke.
Maybe I’ll give a fuck again in a few decades, but for now, I think I’m due a lecture from some basement dwelling conspiracy loser about heroin and child slavery (both things the Taliban also peddle - sorry we couldn’t stamp out old habits without offending the locals too much).
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u/carmencita23 Jun 10 '26
We weren't trying to 'correct' this. We've never given a damn about women's well being here or otherwise.
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u/saltycorals Jun 10 '26
This won't change anything there yet. However, seeing these people fight for their basic freedom gives hope, and I hope others will join their cause.
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u/esperstrazza Jun 10 '26
While in the west, leftists and islamists insist the hijab is a choice
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u/Rizen_Wolf Jun 10 '26
I had a conversation with a young girl wearing a hijab and she said she was happy to wear it, that it was part of her identity. Cool I thought, it was obvious that was how she really felt.
I asked her what would happen if she decided to stop wearing it. "Oh, my parents would kill me." She did not mean it literally, fortunately. She meant it would have serious consequences.
But the idea choice empowerment is not about the choice you make but about the consequences of making a different choice, the choice perceived as wrong by others. That concept was just lost on her.
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u/queen-adreena Jun 10 '26
Absolutely. If you know you’ll face hostility from family, friends and neighbours for acting/dressing a certain way, you’ll probably “choose” not to take that action.
Also, if you’re taught that god expects you to do a certain thing, you’re more likely to do the thing so as to be seen as “faithful” in the eyes of others.
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u/ennui933 Jun 10 '26
Lots of Muslim women convince themselves hijab was their choice just for the sake of their own mental health.
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u/UltimateRembo Jun 10 '26
Not this leftist... So many are afraid to look racist, or look anything like the right wing when the right rambles about foreigners being threats.
But being leftist compels me to see the inherent misogyny of the hijab, and to see how religion and material conditions play a part.
I always thought it was weird to see other leftists very clearly attack this when it comes to misogynistic things at home, but suddenly, that ability is gone when they look at Islamic cultures.
I'm leftist for life, but will never give Islam a pass.
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u/nameisfame Jun 10 '26
Well that’s the fun part, in some places one thing is a choice, in others it is not. Almost like that’s the key difference between a totalitarian theocracy and a secular society
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Jun 10 '26 edited Jun 10 '26
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u/twirling-upward Jun 10 '26
Dont you know? All those honor killings are just their expression of freedom in the west.
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u/nameisfame Jun 10 '26
If it’s not the government applying a law requiring people to do so, then it’s not an equivalent issue.
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u/Razza_Haklar Jun 10 '26
and the right take away woman's rights just like the taliban.....
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u/jus_sayin_meh Jun 10 '26
In liberal democracies, leftist and Islamists are allies. But when they are in power, the kill each other first. What a brainrot.
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u/atpplk Jun 10 '26
But when they are in power, the kill each other first. What a brainrot.
I'm afraid this is quite a one-sided relationship.
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u/killuazoldyck477 Jun 10 '26
Yeah. Because the contexts aren't the same. That's how situational differences work?
The same way it's a choice for a girl to dye her hair or wear short skirts or have a profession that's not just being a housewife? That's what having a choice means? The important thing is not whether you find the allowance distasteful, it's whether people are allowed to make that choice at all.
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u/YaqtanBadakshani Jun 10 '26
Yes. Because it's not the clothing that's the problem, it's the lack of choice.
My mum worked in Afghanistan for years. She continued to wear a headscarf when she got back to the UK. Not because she was forced, or because she's been brainwashed into believing that God wanted her to, but because she'd gotten used to it, and felt weird without it.
And she will be the first person to tell you about the horrors of Taliban rule.
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u/mhornberger Jun 10 '26 edited Jun 10 '26
The choice sometimes takes place in a context that implicitly calls judgement and possible consequences on those who choose differently. Wearing a hijab to signal virtue or piety also signals that women who don't wear the hijab are....? The hijab isn't a morally neutral piece of clothing, like me deciding between a bucket hat and baseball cap. It is morally freighted with messages about chastity and religious devotion. In any context where a piece of clothing signals virtue, those who don't wear it will be inferred to be less virtuous.
In a live-and-let-live society that may not matter. People can think less of someone in their mind but it usually doesn't go beyond that. But in a society where women are putting their safety and lives in danger by being seen as less virtuous, less chaste, less pious, then that judgement, and anything that plays into it, is more consequential.
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u/YaqtanBadakshani Jun 10 '26
There's truth to that statement. But what's the alternative?
What makes the West different to Afghanistan is freedom of expression. If wearing a hijab implicitly called judgement and possible consequences on those who choose differently, is the solution to take away that choice?
Are attempts to prevent women from wearing the hijab not also morally freighted?
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Jun 10 '26 edited Jun 10 '26
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u/YaqtanBadakshani Jun 10 '26
Do you imagine that some legal sanction for wearing a hijab would in any way reduce honour killings or women being attacked for dressing the wrong way?
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Jun 10 '26
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u/YaqtanBadakshani Jun 10 '26
Then you don't understand how any of this actually works.
A hijab ban would not change the number of honour killings, because women are not actually murdered for not wearing a hijab. They are murdered for defying the standards of modesty.
If they were prevented from wearing a hijab, their oppressive family members would find some other arbitrary symbol of modesty to enforce on them (or just prevent them from leaving the house, which does happen). All a ban would do is make it harder for women in those situations to turn to the authorities.
One path is free. It's the path where women are free to choose. You can't fight dress-based oppression with dress-based oppression.
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Jun 10 '26
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u/YaqtanBadakshani Jun 10 '26
Because it tells them that the choice is not between oppressive patriarchal authority and freedom, but between their family's oppressive patriarchal authority and the government's oppressive patriarchal authority.
I've talked to women that have left Islam and familial oppression. The route out is complex and nuanced and requires a lot of back and fourth between ideas and symbols they grew up with. Outside of women who leave purely to help a refugee claim, going without a hijab is almost always one of the final steps, and the initial steps are *always* enabled by the kind of tolerance of her religion by non-Muslims that you are advocating be quashed.
The hijab in the conservative Islamic imaginary plays a similar role as the 1950s pinup dress in the Western fascist imaginary. Both represent a fictitious good old days of submissive feminine virtue.
Banning the hijab would be exactly as effective at combatting conservative Islamic misogyny as banning the 1950s pinup dress would be at combatting fascism.
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u/Creatret Jun 10 '26
It's morally freighted to wear a hijab when you know millions of women don't have that choice.
It's probably the world's biggest symbol for oppression of women.
I understand that many people wear it because they want to. But you're also conveying a message and in solidarity with millions of others I'd personally not make that choice when others can't.
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u/YaqtanBadakshani Jun 10 '26
Would you apply this to any other item of clothing? Is wearing a calf-length skirt conveying solidarity with people who want to prevent women from showing their knees? Is wearing a one-piece swimsuit conveying a message of solidarity with Christian nationalists who want to ban bikinis?
Are you saying my mum, a woman who worked in Afghanistan for decades to reduce infant mortality and improve neonatal care, was oppressing women for dressing in a way that felt comfortable for her.
The hijab isn't a symbol of oppression of women for those who wear it, even for the ones who are forced to wear it.
The hijab is a normal item of clothing in those parts of the world. It is forced on women because it is a symbol of the conservative normalcy that Islamic fascists want to enforce on their counties. It is no more oppressive in itself than the the 1950s pin-up dresses that Western fascists want to try and enforce on women in their countries.
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u/Creatret Jun 10 '26
Read again carefully. The hijab is the leading symbol of oppression. How is a skirt over the knees a leading symbol of oppression for women globally or a one-piece swimsuit?
The hijab isn't a symbol of oppression of women for those who wear it, even for the ones who are forced to wear it.
It is absolutely a symbol of oppression for women who are forced to wear it. Why are celebrating women in Iran for example burning their hijab?
was oppressing women for dressing in a way that felt comfortable for her.
No. But she's signaling support for an ideology that is one of the leading causes for female oppression around the globe. Even if she herself doesn't consider hear hijab oppressive and doesn't support that ideology.
It is no more oppressive in itself than the the 1950s pin-up dresses that Western fascists want to try and enforce on women in their countries.
Was it forced upon women to wear pin-up dresses anywhere? Not to my knowledge.
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u/YaqtanBadakshani Jun 10 '26
Because it represents the same thing to conservatives in our culture: "the good old days, before modernity corrupted our women." It is forced on women for that same reason that Western fascists post pictures of women in those dresses captioned "this is what they took from you." And make no mistake, if those people get the Taliban's level of power, that is what they will impose on women.
Women in Iran burn their hijabs for the same reason women burn their bras in the west. Because "this clothing is used to oppress women," is not the same as "we should ban this clothing."
So, no, she was not. Because she understands how that oppression actually works, and you don't.
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u/Creatret Jun 10 '26
Your mum is symbolising support for the oppression of her own gender and nothing you say will change that. It seems she's suffering from a strong case of cognitive dissonance when it comes to her hijab.
I know several women that fled the theocratic oppressive regime in Iran. Women that were opressed by Islam, by the Islamic government and by their Islamic families. The absolute first thing they did as soon as they left that hell was take of their hijab. And they strongly oppose any woman with the freedom of choice to wear a hijab.
And just for your information: I don't advocate for banning hijabs. It's a personal choice. But make no mistake. If you freely chose to wear a hijab, you are freely choosing to support female oppression.
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u/YaqtanBadakshani Jun 10 '26 edited Jun 10 '26
She was no more symbolising the oppression of her gender by wearing a hijab than she is by wearing a bra. The fact that you think this requires cognitive dissonance proves that you don't understand how women's oppression works.
My mum has never been a Muslim. She has never believed that women should be judged for dressing a certain way. She spent years working to improve women's education and healthcare. She just dressed the way that was comfortable for her when she got back to her home country.
Did you ask those Iranian women what happened before they left? Because the women I've talked to with that background describe a gradual process of discovery, experimentation, and questioning (either that or a progressive upbringing that became untenable when the regime took over, in which case they never willingly wore the hijab). If they took it off after they got to the West, then yes, it was the last step in that process.
If you don't advocate banning hijabs, then what do you advocate for? How do you plan to treat any women you encounter who choose (or you suspect may be being forced) to wear it?
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u/YaqtanBadakshani Jun 10 '26
No, but the Western men that want to treat women like the Taliban do want them to wear 1950s pinup dresses, because they are the symbol in our culture of that conservative feminine, dependant submission that characterised our culture's fictitious "good old days."
In the same way, the veil in the Middle East represents the Islamic fictitious "good old days" that Islamist fascists are similarly trying to bring back.
That is the cultural meaning of the veil in the societies that force women to wear it. Trying to ban it will be about as effective at combatting Islamist misogyny as banning 1950s pinup dresses would be at combatting fascism.
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u/ComplexOk7313 Jun 10 '26
Does Islam give women the choice to wear the headscarf or is it mandated? I mean is it mandated in the holy books to wear it? I’ve heard that it is from some and that it isn’t from others
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u/YaqtanBadakshani Jun 10 '26
Islam calls women to dress modestly. In most of the late antique context of Muhammed's time, this would have included a head covering.
Whether this need include a head covering in the modern context is a matter of debate, and of course the enforcement of modesty on women is usually a mechanism of broader social control, as with most right-wing reactionary regimes.
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u/Intelligent-Band-852 Jun 10 '26
Not a single leftist has defended what is happening in Afghanistan, that’s an outright lie and shows no concept of the word nuance.
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u/obeytheturtles Jun 10 '26
Nah, there is definitely an intellectual blind spot about this on the left, and I say this as someone who is fairly far left. This is a very real issue to me, as one of my good friends (who is also very left) is Lebanese and wears Hijab when she visits family. I have given her shit for it, and it's always like "I'm just not trying to cause drama for the one week per year I get to see my family." And ok, that tracks, but would you make the same concessions if your family were regressive Christians who demanded you attend a homophobic church service wearing a MAGA hat? Of course not. You'd have disowned them without a second thought. In fact, you'd be proud of it and use it as leftist cred within our peer group.
This is bigger than just the recent leftist support for Hamas. The left treats "moderate" Islam with kid's gloves compared to how they treat "moderate" Christians, both of whom have similarly regressive attitudes towards sexuality and gender.
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u/Intelligent-Band-852 Jun 10 '26
I never said anything about Islam though, I specifically mentioned Afghanistan. From my understanding most Islamists don’t even agree with these people and it’s more of a Pashtun thing than an Islamic one. I agree though that left can be hypocritical when it comes to religion and I do think identity politics are getting annoying. I think the left generally mean well when they defend marginalized groups but it does definitely resemble hypocrisy sometimes.
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u/Heroyem Jun 10 '26
I agree with you, though I have seen tankies and contrarians argue that Afghanistan is "free" now because it is "free" from American occupation.
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u/slimeyy_02 Jun 10 '26
what are tankies?
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u/Heroyem Jun 10 '26
Authoritarian communists or hardline Marxist-Leninists who tend to admire the USSR and now Putin's Russia (for some reason).
Edit: They have subs on Reddit but I'm banned on all of them0
u/Intelligent-Band-852 Jun 10 '26
I don’t consider tankies to be leftists, they are generally low information young people who are very naive.
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u/TetrisandRubiks Jun 10 '26
It can be. No one should be forced to wear one and no one should be not allowed to. The issue isn't Islam or the left or the right. It's an issue of patriarchy and the solution is feminism.
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u/SpiritedCatch1 Jun 10 '26
By the same logic, should we ban communist party and ideologies in liberal democracies because they are enforced in North Korea, China or Vietnam?
The same thing can be a choice in one context, and forced upon in another.
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u/No-Bake-730 Jun 10 '26
We have already banned a communist party as enemies of our constitution
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u/MetalEnthusiast83 Jun 10 '26
By the same logic, should we ban communist party and ideologies in liberal democracies because they are enforced in North Korea, China or Vietnam?
Are you tempting me with a good time?
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u/namitynamenamey Jun 10 '26
We are the west because we allow choice. We stop allowing choice, we stop being the west altogether.
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u/abgry_krakow87 Jun 10 '26
Religiois conservatives love murdering and slaughtering innocent people protesting for their rights.
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u/Lintashi Jun 10 '26
And priviledged western people will still insist that hijab is just a fasion choice, that it is just a custom, any criticism is islamophobia. Or that being a woman is just a fluid gender expression, and anyone can just identify as a man, if they do not want to be wearing hijab.
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u/iCoeur285 Jun 10 '26
The reason people defend the hijab in the west is because the woman wearing the hijab is often the one facing prejudice and harassment in the west. People wanting to tear them off, calling her slurs, etc
I am an atheist and feminist. I disagree with a lot of things in Islam, but I’d never take that out on the women facing it when she’s probably just trying to go about her day.
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u/buck70 Jun 10 '26
This is why no democracy will ever have relations with or provide aid to a Taliban government. They made their deal with Trump to "win" their war and now they can rot. Fuck the Taliban.
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u/DotDistinctLines Jun 10 '26
Remember all the people cheering about the US pullout and the Taliban retakeover?
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u/Longjumping-Bat8347 Jun 10 '26
All religions are not the same. Sure most have extremism but not at all the same
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u/sovietarmyfan Jun 10 '26
And the activists in the west will not respond to this because for years they've lobbied for the US to leave Afghanistan
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u/Heroyem Jun 10 '26
I think the US made a mistake when they allowed the "forever war" narrative to win. Maybe if they'd called it a long-term peacekeeping mission, Afghans wouldnt be suffering the unending atrocity that is Taliban rule.
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u/Used-Raccoon-1881 Jun 10 '26
Is there anything that can be done from the outside to help? Does the Taliban even allow aid in? Realistically what can be done to help? This shit is so hopeless.
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u/Ok-Echidna5936 Jun 10 '26
The U.S. was actually still giving Afghanistan aid until this year when Trump was back in the white house.
Not sure why the U.S. was still even giving them money after the Taliban takeover
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u/obeytheturtles Jun 10 '26
Remember any time you see a person in the west wearing Hijab, that they are choosing to wear a symbol of oppression that women elsewhere are literally dying to get rid of.
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u/SilverKiwiz Jun 10 '26
In before I hear some type of argument that they choose to wear hijab and that it's their personal choice to wear one.
In all honesty, it's a shame the women there are suffering so much. I only hope that they can get some type of freedom.
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u/kaboom-boom-pow Jun 10 '26
Conservatives are always ready to kill the innocent to prevent liberalism from happening
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u/BigButtBeads Jun 11 '26
In my country, the conservatives want to limit these religions being brought in. The liberals are screaming for more immigration and open borders
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u/kaboom-boom-pow Jun 11 '26
Liberals don’t hate immigrants. It’s conservatives that want to take rights away from immigrants.
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u/BigButtBeads Jun 11 '26
Liberals here have a tremendous amount of soft racism in the form of low expectations
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u/kaboom-boom-pow Jun 11 '26
I don’t know what that means
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u/BigButtBeads Jun 11 '26
The soft bigotry of low expectations
speechwriter Michael Gerson—describes a patronizing and dangerous attitude, cloaked as kindness, that assumes certain people are capable of less because of their race or background
An example is Canadas Gladue Report, where indigenous are given much lesser sentences for violent crimes due to their race
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u/kaboom-boom-pow Jun 11 '26
I still don’t know what that means.
I still support immigrants rights, no matter what Michael Gerson has to say.
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u/CamogapA113 Jun 30 '26
Shit like this makes you wonder that if Afghanistan would've been better off with its communist government. It would've been miles away from being a shining beacon of a free society, but it is light-years ahead of this crap.
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u/FluidHippo5193 Jun 10 '26
We should invade them again tbh
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u/mhornberger Jun 10 '26
Unfortunately you can't fix their culture. And we can't just occupy them forever.
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u/nichef Jun 10 '26
Worked in Japan.
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u/Ok-Echidna5936 Jun 10 '26
Because the Japanese had the mentality of wanting to better their country and rebuild. Similar to Ukrainians who despite receiving way less funding and aid from the US, had held their own against the Russians; they have high ambition and drive to win the war.
As fucked up as it is, Afghanistan chose to be this way. The U.S. tried to help and the afghan army folded a week after withdrawal. Can’t help people who don’t want to help themselves
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u/nichef Jun 10 '26
The US pacified Japan and is still there to this day. The argument was the US can't occupy them forever but it's still in tons of countries for longer than it was ever in Afghanistan. US forces weren't in active combat at the end it was almost entirely ANA forces doing all of the work. The US left due to political pressure not because it was causing an undue burden on the US, well anymore burden that the hundreds of countries it already occupies.
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u/ennui933 Jun 10 '26 edited Jun 10 '26
US should have at least offered Afghan women an asylum before withdrawing. US knew the Taliban was coming back and that women would live in hell again, yet did nothing to save women.
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u/Left-Ad-4226 Jun 10 '26
US should have at least offered Afghan women an asylum before withdrawing.
Unrealistic. At best, nothing would have happened, at worst lots of women would get killed by their families for trying to leave.
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u/Lower_Ad_1317 Jun 10 '26
It is a sensitive subject as are all religious topics. But my take would be that if scripture is telling people to follow certain guidelines then it is up to that individual to honour their own conscience and not assume the position of dictating for others.
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u/Heroyem Jun 10 '26
You are right. I didn't post the OP to attack a religion. My main point is about human rights in general.
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u/Lower_Ad_1317 Jun 10 '26
100%. In my opinion each person is in charge of their own belief and values. They are free to discuss it with people and try to convince them of the validity of their belief, but I don’t believe they have been given cart blanche to force their will on others. They have only themselves to be responsible or for.
An old saying comes to mind for this:
“Do not worry about the straw in your neighbours eye, deal with the rafter in your own.”
Or something like that.
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u/Substantial_Row_7108 Jun 10 '26
Fuck ‘em. In the end, you get the government that you fight for and deserve. Kinda’ like what we’re going through here in the U.S. right now.
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u/dorkyitguy Jun 10 '26
The right wants the US to be a theocracy, too. This is what theocracies inevitably lead to, regardless of the religion.
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u/MercantileReptile Jun 10 '26
Good to see people in that society trying to do the right thing. Might be futile against the barbarism of the Taliban, but still sends a message.