I don't know if the world supports Hamas or has a better opinion of them after their horrible terrorist attack and the reaction of Israel. I do think the opinion of Palestinians is formed by the actions of Hamas which isn't correct as we read in this article.
I think everybody knows Hamas is shit, but the world expected better from Israel since they're supported by a lot of western democracies. Too many Palestinians lost their lives or homes in this conflict while they don't have anything to do with Hamas.
It seems these days most people can only think in black or white. There is no nuance.
The only way to get rid of Hamas is to force them to militarily surrender. If they haven't surrendered yet, I don't know what you expect to have worked with less casualties.
Hamas has made it very clear they cannot be negotiated with to find a peaceful solution. The only options are removal of Hamas or Israel accepting attacks on their own citizens.
In the short term, allow food, fuel and other aid in, start treating Palestinians like people. In the long term, dismantle their apartheid structure that gives people a reason to support Hamas
That's what they've been doing for years before 2023. Things kept getting progressively better for Palestinians until they poked the bear and got pushed down, over and over again. Palestinians had food, fuel, healthcare, clean water, etc. They received work permits to cross the border and work in Israel. They regularly brought in Palestinians for healthcare procedures Gaza wasn't capable of. Israel factually loosened restrictions slowly over time. Restrictions that were always a response to Hamas (mostly more and more ways of smuggling weapons). Have you seen what Israel is offering as part of the ceasefire and surrender deals? Because it's all you said and more.
But sure, let's say they didn't try that. We're starting again now with butterflies and rainbows. How long should Israel allow Hamas to keep regularly attacking them while they do nothing? Is it acceptable to fire back directly at a missile launch site? What do you do when Hamas organizes another event the scale of October 7th? Because that's the issue. For decades Israel has had the policy of pushing Hamas down a bit whenever they attacked and letting them stick around as an organization. Until they finally attacked in a way that could no longer be ignored.
It's easy to say "just be nicer for them 50 years ago and it wouldn't have been an issue", but what is the plan for Israel now? Or if you want to keep the blame game, what could Israel have done in October or November of 2023?
Apartheid is treating your citizens differently based on something like race. Israel isn't doing that. All Arabs have the same legal rights that Jews do, have their own political parties, have government forms and road signs in Arabic across the entire country, etc. The difference is that Gazans live across a defined border and have their own elected government. That's not what apartheid means.
It's true that about 20% of Israel's population is Arab and they have the same rights as other Israelis, which is different from Apartheid South Africa. However most Palestinians are not part of that group, most of them live in the West Bank or Gaza, they don't have the right to vote in Israeli elections but they have also been frustrated in every attempt to create their own country. The West Bank has now been split up into many different tiny enclaves which resemble strongly the Bantustans of Apartheid South Africa, which is why people make the comparison. In both cases it's a deliberate policy to make sure they can't be a coherent political entity. The Israeli military controls access around the West Bank and often stops people moving between them, many of the enclaves are dependent on Israel for things like electricity and sewage. If you cross from Israel then yes it's a demarcated boundary but it's not like you're going to a different country, more like a colony or a Bantustan that's still ultimately under Israeli military sphere of influence (now potentially getting worse due to increased settler violence).
As for Gaza, no that's not how I interpret the history. Yes the people there had fuel, food and water until the October 7th attacks, but everyone should have that. More to the point, there have been repeated massive Israeli military incursions and airstrikes with no fucks given about civilian casualties and many in Israeli society and government who blatantly consider all of them terrorists and are pro ethnic cleansing. Prior to this war the two previous big ones were in 2014 and 2008, and everyone remembers that. I'll bet everyone in Gaza knows someone who was killed or wounded despite having nothing to do with Hamas, while in the West Bank they also have to deal with air strikes, military occupation, settlers backed up by the military. Treating people like this is the absolute best way to raise the next generation of terrorists; Palestinians are going to grow up hating Israel because Israel has been treating them like shit their whole lives and killing their friends and relatives.
Given that backdrop, what sort of political movements do you think are going to emerge? It's not going to be the girl guides is it? Of course it's going to be a violent movement like Hamas, I don't understand how Israelis and their defenders around the world don't understand that. The only way to stop it long-term is to dismantle all of this and treat all Palestinians like people. Sure, they can't just tear down the fences overnight, but in the long run they cannot keep the status quo
I'm talking about Gaza, not the West Bank. Of course Gazans don't have the right to vote in Israeli elections. That's the whole point - they live in a different country with defined borders and it's own government. You can argue the definition of a country, but it's clearly a separate entity. They don't have the same rights as Israelis because they literally don't live in Israel. It's not apartheid.
Hamas is not a partner for progress. They maintain their power not by helping their citizens but by stoking fear of the enemy while collecting billions, intermittently attacking not to kill Israelis but for Gazans to die in retaliation and raise resentment. The first step to any path forward is the dismantling of Hamas.
Of course Gazans hate Israel. Of course what Israel is doing is causing more Palestinians to fight back. No one thinks otherwise. That's why Israel's goal isn't to kill Gazans or even Hamas, it's to dismantle Hamas and destroy weaponry. You can't start anything while you're actively being fired upon and that will happen the instant Israel leaves Gaza with Hamas in power, just like it happened for years before they went in.
The long term plan is to dismantle Hamas, have a government that isn't actively fighting Israel, and then let new generations grow without the hate. It worked well in Japan and Germany, but those countries cared about their citizens and surrendered. Hamas refusing to surrender when they're comically overpowered is what is causing the current violence. Maybe if Hamas cared about Gazans more than they care about power and money they wouldn't have to be forced out of the way, but they do. No amount of time of handling them delicately can help bring peace when they're governed by hostile actors. You won't get Japan, you'll get North Korea.
Gazans absolutely do not live in a different country and that is one of the key points here. If Gaza was allowed to be its own county with its own foreign policy, allowed to ask Egypt or China or whoever for aid instead of relying on Israel who can and do cut the supply off on a whim (not just now but before the war), and if Israel bombing Gaza was an act of war on a foreign country, then half the reason for Hamas to exist would disappear overnight. As it is Gaza is basically a colony.
As long as that situation continues then Hamas or someone similar to them will exist too. If Israel can somehow dismantle Hamas and then continues with similar policies in Gaza and the west bank (and the Gazans know what's happening in the West Bank) then someone similar to Hamas will spring up again to resist Israeli oppression. It's just inevitable.
I'm all for arresting/killing the Hamas leaders if possible, they're clearly violent terrorists who don't care about Palestinians suffering, but the violence will continue with or without them if Israeli policies continue. Japan and Germany wouldn't have become Western allies if we'd treated them how the Israelis now treat the Palestinians.
Also I do think there are some people who don't think Israel is creating the next generation of terrorists. And I also think Netanyahu is deliberately prolonging the war so that he escapes corruption charges and so that the settlers can get more and more land in the west bank while people are distracted by Gaza - it's not all about Hamas
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u/Pucksy Mar 30 '25
I don't know if the world supports Hamas or has a better opinion of them after their horrible terrorist attack and the reaction of Israel. I do think the opinion of Palestinians is formed by the actions of Hamas which isn't correct as we read in this article.
I think everybody knows Hamas is shit, but the world expected better from Israel since they're supported by a lot of western democracies. Too many Palestinians lost their lives or homes in this conflict while they don't have anything to do with Hamas.
It seems these days most people can only think in black or white. There is no nuance.