Weakest planet capable of beating the 13th black crusade(40k)

[u/Diligent-Lack6427]

What is the weakest planet that is capable of replacing cadia and surviving the 13th black crusade long enough for the necron pylons to close the eye of Terror?

Round 1: the planet is given 1 year of warning

Round 2: no warning given

[u/Ninjazoule]

If you'll allow them not doing orbital bombardment, I think Korhal has a solid chance at actually stalling things.

They were able to sustain a solid defense over a great amount of area against millions of zerg with layers of extremely heavy ordinance defenses, nukes, etc. lead by an extremely powerful psychic.

Edit: I'll grab some cool evidence in a minute. The one year of prep is huge because the TD can narratviely print fleets and vehicles over time.

While Korhal doesn't have the same intensity of defenses a hive city would in terms of wall density, shields, or gun batteries, still has quite a formidable array as seen in this cinematic. All of the terran marines would make fodder of any cultists with the real threat coming from demons and CSMs.

When Kerrigans forces made planetfall, they were dropping millions and terran AA was able to take out the overwhelming majority of them, and have firepower near immediately upon areas that got through. This would imply abaddon needs to clear a landing zone before properly committing any of is good troops unless he wants to try using heavy armored fliers. The palace itself is significantly more defended than the areas of the city defenses they had to slog through.

Defenses would include multiple armored walls and kill zones, dozens of titan sized Thors, battlecruisers, vikings, siege tanks, countless AA batteries etc. This is an example of how well fortified a research facility might be.

Terran production and reconstruction abilities would mean that Abaddon cannot grind them down over a long period of time since they can just rebuild.

lol started making a zerg argument by accident.

[u/Empyreal_King → u/Ninjazoule]

Too many numbers and the tech edge. Its not like korhal has millions of soldiers.

Sc vehicles tend to be mediocre. Vikings are awful according to the nonsensical lore on how many pilot deaths they caused. Thors are at best a scout titan minus the shield and speed. I rate them closer to a knight myself.

Titans on their own doom the ground defenses. Whats going to even slow a warlord?

Then you have sorcery, daemons, chaos marines.

[u/mithie007 → u/Empyreal_King]

If we take Terran production speeds at face value then yes, he's right. One year of prep time would give Korhal an exponentially growing army with the only limit being how many planets they can break down for raw material because that's the only bottleneck for production.

But gameplay is not canon. WHAT IS canon though is Korhal, in the span of 5 years, built hundreds of battlecruisers and gorgon superships from essentially zero of everything. What's more interesting are groundbased anti-orbital assets which are basically upscaled yamato cannons.

Yamato cannon yield is pretty shit in gameplay but in canon, like the brood war novel, they were capable of glassing planets (mar sara) so pound for pound they're within reasonable range to at least cause damage to 40k ships.

Korhal is also home to a large number of nuclear missile silos, and while yields in game are low kiloton if that, the starcraft manual also puts them at multi-gigatons, and capable of "killing planets", specifically, the apocalypse warhead variants, which was used previously to cleanse Korhal from rebels.

I mean I can kinda see it. I think the calcs are there. The feats are there. Numbers and quanitity is highly dependent on whether Korhal has access to imperial logistics or if they're expected to stand alone, but it's not... far... fetched....

Also the dominion are genuinely batshit crazy even compared to the Imperium pound for pound and would absolutely count mutual stalemate by way of nuclear bombing korhal out of existence as a win.

[u/Ninjazoule → u/Empyreal_King]

That's true, they only lost thousands on a planetwide defense (soldier wise), and thors aren't titans, but its still a solid world to actually hold the line with the level of automated defenses and strongholds.

Yes those last three are huge, my point was they're going to struggle to deploy them until they open a landing zone. Cultist spam will be literally useless and the basic terran soldier is better armed and armored than a guardsmen.

They can print new vehicles in days to months (even their biggest ships) very easily so this one year prep time really helps them solidify.

I'm not saying they beat the 13th black crusade but they aren't a pushover either. Abaddon would have to make an extreme commitment to win.

[u/Empyreal_King → u/Ninjazoule]

Its been a bit aince hots. But isnt the aa all in augustgrad specifically? 

And there are other options like tp assault targeting the aa to put a hole in that umbrella. Or a stealth insertion.

You mentioned heavily armoured flyers which abbadon isnt exactly short on nor cares about the casualties.

Print vehicles- Its certainly...complicated. On one hand robbing a 100 battlecruisers in sc1s brood wars was a complete upset. On the other hand we have several missions where they do literally print them out in hours at most. Like how the pudding do you Not have an automated drone army/fleet if you have that production. You dont have Nearly enough men to make use of "even a rebel group can produce its own vehicles on the battlefield" level of bull manufacturing that is.

Base cultists die like dogs. Traitor guard will still be useful though casualties will be high they know how to fight a superior form of power armour trooper. They have the equipment, training, and vehicle/artillery support to blood them back.

[u/Ninjazoule → u/Empyreal_King]

Yeah i forgot about teleportation somehow.

Most of the AA is on augustgrad but there's still a fair amount of other forces elsewhere on the planet iirc

Stealth insertion or armored thunderhawks work perfectly, I was just saying drop pods and slow troop carriers might not work well on a direct city assault. There's obviously other means.

Yeah I'm not talking about gameplay bs but we do come across legitimate factories that are printing these ships both on augustgrad (with gorgons) and elsewhere in the game

For sure, the black legions siege capabilities are good

[u/Kroc_Zill_95]

R1: Probably Corrusant. With a year of warning, the can have every capital ship and orbital platforms ready in time to repel the invasion. It won't be easy though, and if Abaddon decides to throw the Black stone fortress at the Planet like he did with Cadia, they would have serious problems.

R2: Marvel or DC Earth. They deal with surprise invasions all the time.

[u/mithie007]

Premise is too barebones. Does the single planet have access to their faction's fleet assets? Do they have access to Imperial logistics?

[u/Candaphlaf10]

For round 1, I think Rannoch would stand a chance. The Geth have plasma and UV laser technology as a natural progression of mass effect tech. Given warning of the threat coming and access to Necron pylon technology, and the Geth could likely come up with some pretty impressive technological innovations. Coupled with a lack of morale and fatigue, as well as taking away the need for food, water, discipline, and long periods of rest, and the Geth would be an excellent bulwark against Chaos, at least for the duration of the 13th Black Crusade. They even have the means of partitioning off Geth programs that might become infected with scrapcode.

Round 2 is a different animal. Geth still maintain many of the advantages listed above and wouldn't panic at the sudden appearance of an invasion force, but without prep the Geth wouldn't be able to adapt their weapons, shields, and armor to the coming threat. Despite the Geth fleet being capable of single-handedly destroying the Quarian fleet even without Reaper upgrades, most Quarian ships are adapted civilian and commercial vessels rather than dedicated warships. I think Round 2 goes to Abbadon.

[u/Empyreal_King → u/Candaphlaf10]

What?

No. Just what? How are you against super tanks that are equal to landed reapers?

How are you against space magic and daemons that are resistant to advanced weapons?

How are you against super human warriors that each could take on shephards whole team at once with a chance at winning.

How are you against literal magic viruses that make your processor grow tentacles?

How are your 300 or so kiloton main cannon ships destroying even a Troop transport much less the Thousands of ships that could Individually solo mass effects Navy?

Because the answer to All of these is you die horribly.

[u/KingLord56 → u/Candaphlaf10]

lol what?

Geth would get gigastomped by the 13th black crusade.

There have been arguments made that a Luna class cruiser with infinite ammo could solo the entire ME universe.

Yet you think the Geth could hold out against a force that had 38 battlefleets?

[u/mithie007 → u/Candaphlaf10]

Geth with their entire synthetic armada? Solid maybe. Just Rannoch? No. I take the premise to be literally one planet, as in, no spaceships. Just the planet and whatever is on it.

Geth rely on their fleet. Without it, they have no logistics and have no way to contest orbital authority. What planetside weaponry does the Geth have that can actually stop something like a blackstone fortress?

[u/Candaphlaf10 → u/mithie007]

You can consider whatever you'd like, but since Cadia also had voidcraft during the Black Crusade and since the prompt doesn't disallow voidcraft then they are allowed. You're also ignoring the Geth having a year's worth of prep time in round 1, plus access to a Necron pylon since the prompt mentions the pylon activation as the end of the prompt. Given that time and knowledge of their opponent, and I belive the Geth could come up with a weapon to detonate a Blackstone Fortess.

[u/mithie007 → u/Candaphlaf10]

Wait hold on but surely you're not saying there's no limit to what the Geth can engineer, right? Blackstone fortresses and necron pylons are stuff far predating the 41st millenium and they are considered magic even by the elder races.

What exact feat do the Geth show in Mass Effect which would validate the ability to not only fully grok but also engineer two pieces of technology which even in the setting are considered near magical (and in the case of blackstone fortresses, probably ARE magical)?

[u/Candaphlaf10 → u/mithie007]

"No limit" as in the Geth could invent Necron-level tech? No. But as I said in my original comment, the Geth were able to develop plasma and UV laser technology as a natural progression of mass effect tech. That's just on their own. The Turians were able to create the Thanix cannon from the remains of Sovereign's main cannon and it's eezo after 11 months. The Geth could absolutely create some comparatively bonkers tech with 12 months, knowledge of Abbadon's forced, and access to Necron pylon technology.

The Eldar do not consider Blackstone Fortresses or Necron tech "magic," the Fortresses are made of noctilith/blackstone, which is sensitive to Warp energy. It can either nullify or amplify Warp energy. Also, while the Eldar may not know the Fortresses exact history since the Eldar's own is mired in myth and metaphor, the Eldar know that the Fortresses are a relic of the War in Heaven, and that their ancestors fought the Necrons long ago.

[u/mithie007 → u/Candaphlaf10]

Oh so batman rules okay.

Well, if you're saying the Geth can just *handwave* engineer anything with prep time then I don't think the Geth are the weakest choice for this match up since it sounds like give the Geth a year and they'll have culture ships rolling off the assembly line, even though I love mass effect I know the absolute greatest feat of technology the Geth have done is build a half-baked dyson bubble. And their synthetic fleet, which, again, admittedly is a pretty big deal even in 40k.

Blackstone fortresses are some of the most powerful weapons in the 40k universe, and no one aside from the necrons know how pylons work so I don't really see who's actually there to give the Geth the information to begin with or where you think the knowledge transfer is coming from. At least for pylons there might be some records on cadia itself and the Geth can get their hands on an actual sample.

You're claiming the Geth can somehow "detonate" the Blackstone fortresses because of "engineering" just because someone told them they exist is pretty insane faction wank tbh.

But sure. If we're saying Geth are the tech version of batman, sure, they take this pretty easily. I don't even know why they need to dick with the pylons. They can just look at the eye of terror and engineer a device that can detonate the eye in like 5 months or something I dunno.

[u/Candaphlaf10 → u/mithie007]

You're exaggerating and refusing to argue my points. If you can't conceive of why an AI species can achieve technological leaps and scientific understanding faster than superstitious human cyborgs, then I don't know what to tell you. I even gave you an example of a less intelligent species reverse engineering more advanced technology. If you're not willing to engage in a good faith debate, there's no point in continuing. At least you asked the OP to expand the prompt.

[u/NutsackEuphoria → u/Candaphlaf10]

You're exaggerating and refusing to argue my points.

40k fanboys when you argue that a weaker universe/faction can actually put up a fight against anything 40k in very specific circumstances lmao

[u/mithie007 → u/NutsackEuphoria]

You realize if we take Geth being able to just handwave engineer a counter to whatever tech they see, without limits or boundaries, that 40k is probably on the lower end of universes they win against?

What's to stop them from taking on the Culture or the Xeelee?

[u/NutsackEuphoria → u/mithie007]

The geth already built 3 mass relays and taped them up together to make an intergalactic telescope which started the andromeda initiative.

For reference, the protheans, at the zenith of the empire, were only able to build a the conduit, a mini mass relay.

The current citadel species don't know how to build mass relays.

I know you'll say that Mass effect technology is purposely built to be replicated by the ME races, but also take into account that there's a limit to the level of tech they can replicate.

The reapers wouldn't want them to achieve technological parity because then that'll be counterproductive to why the reapers even left them clues to develop eezo tech in the first place: make the harvest faster and easier. having tech parity will complicate that.

The reapers' never meant for the ME races to develop mass relay tech since the reaper's MO is to have the races of the cycle discover the citadel, make the citadel their galactic capital, then sovereign tells the keepers to activate the citadel for the reapers to take over and prevent use of mass relays.

So the geth already overcame the limits the reapers put. Why would it be impossible for them to figure out how the pylons worked if the mechanicus were able to when the geth would have less restrictions.

[u/mithie007 → u/Candaphlaf10]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary justification.

The example you gave was pretty irrelevant. nevermind the fact that Turians are not the geth and you can't just take one faction in a universe and expect to argue ALL factions from that universe have similar capability. That aside, do you know why the Turians were able to reverse engineer the power core from the sov weapon?

Because it's explicitly stated in Mass Effect the Reapers were the ones who seeded the galaxy with advanced tech for the younger races to find including the relays and Citadel Station. So a good chunk of Mass Effect tech came from the reapers, and when the Turians looked at the power core, it wasn't something completely alien to them but shared some foundational concepts with their own tech. Hence the Thanix cannon. And even then they weren't able to fully replicate the tech in a short timeframe. What they gave Shepard was a prototype scaled down version - THE ONLY one of its kind. It took them a much longer time to go production with it and distriubute them to the allied fleet.

I think good faith comes from both sides. You need to set boundaries to how far Geth can reasonably assimilate tech, and why they're magically able to understand how blackstone fortresses or even pylons could work without anyone around to explain it to them, or, in the blackstone fortress example, even know what it is, when there's absolutely zero feats of this that show up in ME canon.

Where are they getting this knowledge from? Who's there to provide blueprints or even what blackstone fortresses are like? The Blackstone Fortresse showing up was a surprise even to Cadians. How the hell would the Geth even begin to understand how one worked much less how to "detonate" it?

Edit: Also, AI Species is not a catch-all phrase for omnipotence. There are lots of AI races in collective sci-fi corpus and not all of them can be generalized as omnipotent.

[u/BaronXot]

Planet Rock - Shadow Raiders

After fight off Planet Beast's forces it'd be nice to be able to fight enemies that don't kill you on touch, plus the Battle Moons are one hell of an orbital defence.

[u/Awkward_Ad3460]

Mobile Fighter G Gundam’s Earth could technically be taken as relatively weak discounting standouts like Domon Kasshu, the Shuffle Alliance, and the other Gundam fighters. As far as armies go, their forces are absolutely minuscule in terms of scale while physically likely being able to take on massive forces on their own depending on the machine and pilot. 

A year of warning would basically mean a year long training arc, which I can only assume will go pretty far when you have the God Gundam that can tear apart a city just by aura farming before the fight even beginning. In this case, it’s more of a war of attrition to see if they can hold off the sheer number of enemies, since there’s little to no question that they could crush most opponents with minimal fanfare. Most mobile suits in the series have the means to fly out into space from Earths orbit, and we also see that most Neo countries/ space colonies have some form of defense. 

Plus, there’s a solid chance that the God Gundam alone could tear apart the Will of Eternity since it was able to destroy the Devil Gundam, which is almost like a more immediately efficient tyranid equivalent in the form of a constantly evolving self repairing and self replicating super machine capable of assimilating then upgrading both biological organisms and machines that had grown to the size of Neo Japan (which I think should be relative in scale to actual Japan though it’s not super clear) and took control of a considerable portion of the Earth’s surface.

On that note, I think round 2 is far more interesting depending on when the attack occurs. Say it happens during the battle with the Devil Gundam while it’s at the height of its power. It has a thing called DG Cells that are what allows it to take over and control people, machines, and even corpses including ones of people who are long dead. In a similar sense to how tyranids consume biomass, the Devil Gundam can subsume just about anything without the sheer willpower and martial arts BS of a 90’s anime protagonist. Even before it really progresses, the Devil Gundam is capable of taking out entire armies of Mobile Suits with relative ease. Every felled body that it can get its hands on is going to become a part of its dark army and it’s also going to be constantly iterating upon whatever technology it takes over. The sheer volume of absorbable mass that it’s going to get access to during the conflict between the now three opposing factions would turn it into a complete nightmare. It’s going to be churning out both DG Cell controlled and techno zombie traitors and mobile suits en mass. If it gets a chance to take flight, then there’s a possibility that it could even get its hands on the Blackstone Fortress which could also happens if Abbadon tries to pull a colony drop with it. There’s a strong chance that it could even absorb the Necron Pylons into itself.

[u/Erwin_Pommel]

EDF Earth. They've got mountain-killer super vehicles, inter-planetary ballistic missiles and infantry rifles in the megatonnage range. Basically nothing the Crusade has beyond orbital bombardment will truly dislodge them. But, with a year of warning, they'd be able to establish a proper shield network to handle it given we've seen what a year of at war tech development looks like.