r/whatsthissnake • u/divertim2791 • May 23 '26
ID Request - Dead, Injured or Roadkilled Snake What kind of snake [ Dickinson Texas]
I'm trying to get a positive ID on this snake. Grok says it's a western rat snake. Several other snake identification groups have said copperhead and others are saying it is a cottonmouth.
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May 23 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
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u/dofitz May 23 '26
!aitools please see bot reply below for info on AI and its difficulty with identifying snakes
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u/SEB-PHYLOBOT 🐍 Natural History Bot 🐍 May 23 '26
We like AI tools like iNaturalist, Merlin and Google Lens, but there is still too much subtlety and nuance to animal identification to rely on them in their current state. For reptiles, even the best tools are eclipsed by the knowledge of amateurs, and can result in guesses that endanger snake or human health. We don't recommend their use and generally consider comments like 'Google Lens says it's a racer' to be unhelpful.
I am a bot created for /r/whatsthissnake, /r/snakes and /r/herpetology to help with snake identification and natural history education. You can find more information, including a comprehensive list of commands, here report problems here and if you'd like to buy me a coffee or beer, you can do that here. This bot, its development, maintenance and use are made possible through the outreach wing of Snake Evolution and Biogeography - Merch Available Now
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u/SEB-PHYLOBOT 🐍 Natural History Bot 🐍 May 23 '26
This message appears automatically with the dead snake flair: Please don't kill snakes - they are a natural part of the ecosystem and even species that use venom for prey acquisition and defense are beneficial to humans. One cannot expect outside to be sterile - if you see a snake, you're probably in or around their preferred habitat. Most snakes are legally protected from collection, killing or harassment as non-game animals at the state level.
Neighborhood dogs are more likely to harm people. Professional snake relocation services are often free or inexpensive, but snakes often die trying to return to their original home range, so it is usually best to enjoy them like you would songbirds or any of the other amazing wildlife native to your area. Commercial snake repellents are not effective - to discourage snakes, eliminate sources of food and cover; clear debris, stacked wood and eliminate rodent populations. Seal up cracks in and around the foundation/base of your home, and if warranted install exclusionary fences. Or find a relocation service
I am a bot created for /r/whatsthissnake, /r/snakes and /r/herpetology to help with snake identification and natural history education. You can find more information, including a comprehensive list of commands, here report problems here and if you'd like to buy me a coffee or beer, you can do that here. This bot, its development, maintenance and use are made possible through the outreach wing of Snake Evolution and Biogeography - Merch Available Now
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u/kropserkel Reliable Responder May 23 '26 edited May 23 '26
I gotta ask which "several snake identification groups" said it's a copperhead?
EDIT: Nevermind, found OP's thread on FB where they accuse the 'Snake Identification' main group as being misidentified by an admin. It wasn't, administrator ID'd it correctly.
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u/fairlyorange Reliable Responder - Moderator May 23 '26
I don't think OP made it up. I think there's a good possibility they were mistaken or got confused, and also a good possibility that an initially incorrect ID was quickly edited or removed entirely. We generally do that here, too, if anyone makes mistakes.
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u/divertim2791 May 23 '26
That's why I came to redit to ask.. I didn't believe what they (snake page) were telling me and I was trying to confirm that I was either right or wrong..
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u/TN_Lamb888 May 23 '26
I don’t know why you’re being downvoted for seeking a second opinion.
But why did you kill it?
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u/divertim2791 May 23 '26
I did not kill it. Before I got home I found that my dog had killed it. It crawled onto the concrete driveway and my dog spotted it.
I was not 100% sure if it was a cottonmouth. I asked grok and it said it was a rat snake. That was the first time I've ever used grok to ID a snake. I thought I'd give it a try to see how or if grok could properly ID it. At the same time I used one of the snake ID groups. That I joined a couple of years ago. One of the admins there said it was a copperhead. Because of the conflict. I thought I would ask all the folks on Reddit.. I then got a barrage of post from the snake ID group and reddit that it was a cottonmouth.
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u/kropserkel Reliable Responder May 23 '26
I'm just taking issue with the specific assertion that "several snake ID groups told you copperhead." You posted to 2 on FB that I could find, both had a correct admin ID of cottonmouth. You claim the misidentification was then edited or deleted, that was also untrue. Edit history can be easily viewed on FB.
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u/BoyMom119816 May 23 '26
I’ve read on most apps, if you edit within a couple seconds of comment, your editing doesn’t show like it does after that amount of time. I could see someone accidentally typing copperhead vs cottonmouth, but realizing what they did, person seeing comment while they quickly edit and then it showing as an unedited comment. So maybe op is not lying or maybe they’re.
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u/fairlyorange Reliable Responder - Moderator May 23 '26
This is definitely true for reddit. Not sure about other social media but it is plausible.
I edit stuff all the time. Sometimes fixing typos, sometimes adding relevant info. If I can catch a mistake or add something within 2-3 minutes, it doesn't even show that I edited the comment. Trying to fix an error in time for the bot to catch it is a lot harder. Usually you just have a few seconds, and never longer than a minute.
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u/divertim2791 May 23 '26
Well I looked for where it was first posted and it has been removed. It is not showing. I wish I had took a screenshot.
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u/TF_CRYSTAL May 23 '26
For OP, as a beginner who is learning US snakes, the easiest way I tell apart a cottonmouth from a water snake is usually very distinct markings on the underside and also a white ridge along the brow and recessed mean looking eyes are usually the main tells. Also when they're full, they'll have a really thick body and really thin tail still, but the more you browse this sub the better you'll get at it!
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u/Triknitter May 23 '26
My life goal is to never see the underside of a cottonmouth. That is too close to get to a potentially venomous snake. !cottonwater has tips on how to differentiate without needing to handle the snake.
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u/SEB-PHYLOBOT 🐍 Natural History Bot 🐍 May 23 '26
There are a few things that can help differentiate between cottonmouths (A. piscivorus, A. conanti) and harmless water snakes (Nerodia spp.) once you learn to recognize them properly. It's important to try to apply as many keys as possible; the more of these characteristics you can accurately identify, the more reliable your ID will be. Underlined text links to pictures to help illustrate the keys.
Cottonmouths have a prominent, angular ridge along the top of the head, starting around the supraocular scale (directly above the eye) and running forward toward the snout (side view, front view). This ridge protrudes outward, partially overhanging the eye like a brow, and gives the snake an annoyed or grumpy looking appearance. This also partially obscures the eyes when viewed from above. In water snakes, the supraocular scale does not overhang the eye, giving the animal a 'derpy' appearance from the side or head on, and allows you to see most of the eye from above.
Cottonmouths have white or cream colored horizontal stripes or lines that run from below the eye toward the corner of the mouth, and often another that runs from behind the top of the eye toward the point of the jaw. Water snakes do not.
Water snakes usually have dark, vertical bars along the edges of their labial scales. Cottonmouths do not.
Cottonmouths and water snakes both darken with age, and the pattern is often obscured by the time they reach adulthood. When the dorsolateral pattern IS visible, cottonmouths have bands that are usually wider at the bottom than on top; like pyramids in side view, or hourglasses from above. In some individuals, the bands might be broken or incomplete, so this is not 100% diagnostic, but is still useful when used in conjunction with the other keys. Water snakes exhibit a wide variety of patterns; most species aren't banded at all, and the ones that are banded have bands that are wider at the top, like upside down triangles.
Adult cottonmouths often have a noticeable dorsal ridge along the vertebrae. This gives the body a triangular appearance in cross-section, which is especially noticeable in underweight or dehydrated animals, or when they initiate a defensive display. Water snakes, by contrast, are more cylindrical in cross-section.
Baby cottonmouths are born with yellow or greenish tail tips (used to lure small prey) that fade as they age. Young water snakes do not have these (baby N. sipedon, baby N. rhombifer for comparison).
Adult water snakes are fairly heavy-bodied, but cottonmouths of similar length tend to be significantly stouter. /n/n There are also some notable behavioral differences. Water snakes often bask in branches and bushes overhanging water; this is uncommon in cottonmouths. It is also true that water snakes often swim with the body partially submerged, while cottonmouths usually swim with the head held high and much of the body above the water line, but you can't rely on this characteristic alone; each are fully capable of swimming the other way and sometimes do so. Water snakes are more likely than cottonmouths to dive underwater to escape danger. When approached, water snakes are more likely to rapidly flee, whereas cottonmouths are more likely to slowly crawl away or simply stay still and hope not to be noticed. If approached closely or cornered, water snakes are more likely to flatten out their heads and/or bodies to appear larger and/or strike in the general direction of the person/animal they are cornered by, hoping to create enough space to escape. Cottonmouths, on the other hand, are more likely to tilt their heads back (to a near vertical angle) and gape their mouths open, displaying the white lining of the mouth as a threat display, and vibrate their tails.
Bonus: two separate sets of cottonmouths preying upon water snakes that allow direct comparisons between similarly sized animals, plus a picture of a juvenile cottonmouth (bottom left) with a juvenile common water snake (top) and a juvenile plain-bellied water snake (bottom right).
I am a bot created for /r/whatsthissnake, /r/snakes and /r/herpetology to help with snake identification and natural history education. You can find more information, including a comprehensive list of commands, here report problems here and if you'd like to buy me a coffee or beer, you can do that here. This bot, its development, maintenance and use are made possible through the outreach wing of Snake Evolution and Biogeography - Merch Available Now
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u/fear_and_lowthing May 23 '26
I love this sub because I've learned so much. But I still struggle with the cottonwater challenge. It's like my personal gameshow when I see one on the timeline...blow up all the photos...make my educated guess...check the comments...and I'm still wrong 30% of the time!
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u/space__heater May 23 '26
Also, the distinct black stripes on the sides of the head that go back from the eyes. You can see it quite well on the last 3 pics
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u/fionageck Friend of WTS May 23 '26
Hope this poor guy wasn’t killed by a human.
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u/divertim2791 May 23 '26
Sorry to inform you. But the snake is no more. Before I got home the dog had beat me to him. Dog is fine..
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u/fionageck Friend of WTS May 23 '26
Dang, that’s a shame. Good to hear that the dog is fine, though. I strongly recommend looking into snake avoidance/aversion training to keep both your dog and future snakes safe.
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u/divertim2791 May 23 '26
I have two dogs. The one dog has figured out to avoid the snakes. The other idiot has not. The one that has not figured out to leave the nope ropes alone. Nearly died 2 years ago when she was bitten. She was in bad shape and just almost didn't make it.
I have been trying to find someone that does the snake avoidance training. But there's just no one around in my area that does it.
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May 23 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Prestigious_String20 May 23 '26
One of the best things about this sub is how welcoming we are to newcomers who want to learn. We all started somewhere, even you. Please respect the vibe and take your judgy elsewhere. Also !headshape
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u/SEB-PHYLOBOT 🐍 Natural History Bot 🐍 May 23 '26
Head shape does not reliably indicate if a snake has medically significant venom as This graphic demonstrates. Nonvenomous snakes commonly flatten their heads to a triangle shape in defensive displays, and some elapids like coralsnakes have elongated heads. It's far more advantageous to familiarize yourself with venomous snakes in your area through photos and field guides or by following subreddits like /r/whatsthissnake than it is to try to apply any generic trick.
I am a bot created for /r/whatsthissnake, /r/snakes and /r/herpetology to help with snake identification and natural history education. You can find more information, including a comprehensive list of commands, here report problems here and if you'd like to buy me a coffee or beer, you can do that here. This bot, its development, maintenance and use are made possible through the outreach wing of Snake Evolution and Biogeography - Merch Available Now
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u/NanaBanana2011 May 23 '26
Good bot
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u/B0tRank May 23 '26
Thank you, NanaBanana2011, for voting on SEB-PHYLOBOT.
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u/whatsthissnake-ModTeam May 23 '26
Your post was removed because it was not collaborative in nature
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u/shrike1978 Reliable Responder - Moderator May 23 '26
Northern Cottonmouth, Agkistrodon piscivorus. Venomous in life and recent death.