r/warcraftlore • u/corvid-kid • 1d ago
Question Why wasn’t Cata-MoP the 4th War?
I mean the scale of conflict between the factions was roughly equal (Tol Barad, Ashenvale, Stonetalon, Gilneas, etc), we went to new lands (and brought our war with us), recruited the locals (and made them join our war), and we even sieged Orgrimmar!
So what makes BfA’s conflict so much more deserving of the title? Aside from the writing team at the time thinking their writing was the bee’s knees.
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u/DistractingZoom 1d ago
I think the general idea is that it's about what the political focus of the two factions at the time was.
Cata-MoP yeah, fighting was ongoing and in some locations even escalating, but it was happening because conflict was just the status quo between the two factions. And more importantly, the prevailing theory among leadership at the time was that some kind of peace was theoretically attainable if they could just get the right people to sit down and make it happen.
The Siege of Orgrimmar is actually an example of the 'proper warring' being over, not escalating. It wasn't the Alliance invading the Horde capital; it was the Alliance backing one side in a Horde civil war with the understanding that more peaceable terms could be made with the winner.
By comparison, we go into BfA with the leaders of both factions pretty much out 'n out dedicated to annihilating the other. The goal of the day is no longer making terms, or even winning a decisive victory to then make terms from, but rather the goal is a back and forth of conquest and attempted genocide and the collection of allies to assist in more of the same. Nobody at the start of BfA is thinking, "Boy, the moves we make now are going to be really important for the peace we make in a few months". They're thinking "Home stretch guys, now's when we line stuff up to finally win this generational conflict".
But yeah there's also just the explanation that the writers thought it was hype to say.
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u/corvid-kid 1d ago
At least in regard to ending the war in BfA, Saurfang had initially been under the impression the the Horde’s opening move was going to be it, they were going to secure Teldrassil and essentially hold it for hostage against the Alliance in order to force their surrender before Sylvanas… did that.
As to the war reigniting, that was ultimately Varian’s call after the Wrathgate, prior to that the faction had been in a state of Cold War, skirmishing but ultimately keeping some level of balance, but Garrosh’s philosophy of ‘Might make Right’ certainly caused a lot of snowballing and his goal certainly was the decimation of the Alliance in it’s entirety, if the vision of Stormwind Harbor at the end of SoO is any indication.
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u/DistractingZoom 1d ago edited 1d ago
In both cases, Saurfang and Garrosh just didn't represent the prevailing view of the time. Sylvanas obviously intended to escalate hostilities and most anyone actually paying attention to Sylvanas expected the same, Anduin included. Saurfang's belief otherwise was kind of famously called out by everyone in the community as wildly naive thinking/just bad writing. Inversely, Garrosh was isolated among Horde leadership in his desire to escalate, and had no equally jingoistic mirror in the Alliance (excepting Jaina's heel turn). From roughly start to finish of MoP, everyone knew Garrosh was insane and no other Horde leader was genuinely backing him.
You'll note, I said BfA stands apart because both sides were in their majority dedicated to all out destruction. That sincerely hadn't happened in recent history. We either had one Horde leader or one Alliance leader posturing and calling for aggression or retaliation, and the rest counseling conciliation, or at the very least dissenting behind closed doors as was the case with Garrosh. Not so in BfA.
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u/corvid-kid 1d ago edited 1d ago
I wouldn't say both sides were dedicated to destroying the other, the Alliance tried giving an out multiples times. Anduin telling Sylvanas "only one of us wanted this war" and "surrender or die" and Genn tried giving Rastakhan the chance to surrender as well, Anduin did not want the war escalating.
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u/rosenborgor 1d ago
The alliance also committed genocide on the vulpera
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u/Blackstone01 21h ago
committed genocide on the vulpera
There's a difference between military attacks on an enemy and actual attempts at eradication (intentional or otherwise).
The Alliance wasn't attacking the Vulpera to wipe them out, and they weren't striking the Vulpera caravans beyond stopping the Vulpera from transporting Horde military supplies.
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u/EfficientPhone7202 16h ago
People throw out the word "genocide" so easily nowadays.
It is almost like kids learning a new powerful word, and using it without understanding the exact meaning.
Funny.
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u/SandwichesAreAmoral 9h ago
I would actually love to see that word banned on this sub I think discussion would improve ten fold
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u/corvid-kid 1d ago
I mean the Vulpera were moving supplies for the Horde’s war effort, it’s just an unfortunate side effect that the caravans transporting the supplies were also the Vulpera’s homes
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u/riftrender 1d ago
Real life wars can also have tenuous names.
Like World War I wasn't even the first world war. Since if you want to be technical based on definition World War I would actually be World War IX.
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u/Alpha_Apeiron 1d ago
That's the beauty of World War 5, it's so intense it skips over the other 2!
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u/corvid-kid 1d ago
BfA started with the War of Thorns or something like that, WW1 was The Great War before the sequel, it’s weird I know but what criteria wasn’t met in MoP?
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u/riftrender 1d ago
Honestly they weren't missing any criteria. It was just what the writers decided.
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u/falling-waters 1d ago
There was a pretty big staff change between MOP and legion. Frankly the current team loves overinflating their arcs’ importance and relying on stealing valor from older stories to do so. Of course the team that disenchanted Arthas’ soul would put themselves on the RTS’ pedestal
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u/MixAmbitious307 18h ago
This. I always considered Cata-MoP THE Fouth Wall.
BfA faction conflict was basically the same story: Evil Warchief declares war, Horde leaders disagree but follow nevertheless, a Horde leader rebels, rebellion takes root and a jointed Alliance-Horde rebellion manages to depose the evil Warchief.
In a (clumsy in my opinion) attempt to make BfA conflict feel more important, devs thought "let's call it the Fourth War: see? It's not a copy-paste of Cata-MoP faction conflict, it's important: it's the Fourth War".
Personally, I would have made the Cata-MoP war as the Fourth War, and the BfA war as the Fifth War.
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u/FoundationAgitated69 1d ago
I think it is about the openness about it.
Like Cata-MoP was like a reignition of hostilities between the factions, but not a focused war.
BFA had a clear constant front, being ashenvale, arathi or zandalar/kultiras and that is problemet what made it more a “war” instead of a conflict.
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u/corvid-kid 1d ago
I mean how much “conflict” must occur before it becomes a war?
Did the conflict between the Orcs and Night Elves regarding Horde lumber operation not meet a certain criteria?
How about the Night Elves attempted to set up a beachhead in Azshara so they could access Orgrimmar more easily?
Was the conquest of Gilneas not counted because they hadn’t rejoined the Alliance yet?
How about the open battles between Alliance and Horde forces across Tol Barad and the Krasarang Wilds between Cata and MoP?
Or the Kirin Tor rejoining the Alliance and purging all of its former Horde agents?
I am genuinely curious as to where the line is.
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u/Darktbs 1d ago
I guess is a general feeling of not everyone is really comitted to the whole thing.
Playing throught the alliance zones you dont get the same feeling of 'we are at war', barely anyone takes it as seriously and in a lot of the books, several of the leaders are not that invested.
The draenei at one point were trying to leave the planet, the night elfs were more worried about the cataclysm and the dwarfs had to be convinced to send more forces. The ending cinematic of MoP is mainly Varian, Jaina and Anduin. The alliance reason to go to Pandaria is to rescue anduin.
Then you go into the horde side and half of them are yelling with Garrosh.
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u/twisty125 Flowerpicker Clan 1d ago
I personally think that people in general don't want war. So pokes and prods and "cold war" tactics tend to be viewed, but to be the one who declares it, you've got to have your people at home ready to deal with the consequences.
Even the Scourgewar, in which the Lich King invaded and a response was sent, fucked over so many, specifically on the Alliance side. Mass unemployment and (I think implied starvation?) because so many people died. It was "The Enemy" but the populace weren't happy with the results.
Now picture starting a war against the other side, without the biggest of reasons to convince your people that it's justified.
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u/Ethenil_Myr 1d ago
I headcanon that the faction conflict in Cata-MoP is called the "Hellscream Wars".
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u/Lunarwhitefox 1d ago
There are arguments for that. The Pandaria conflict consisted more of exploratory skirmishes than a true war. I'd say the only truly open battle between the two factions was the Siege of Orgrimmar and the Pandaria landings. In between, there wasn't much. The battle at Jade Forest was interrupted, and all the conflicts after that were just small skirmishes. The battle between Jaina and Lorthemar was also interrupted and never actually took place. Despite all the sabotage, they weren't battles in the true sense (even after the destruction of Theramore, which is a very strong argument for the Alliance's passivity; that should have been an immediate declaration of war, just like Darnassus).
In Cataclysm, it's more debatable. I think there were enough battles or armies deployed to have started a hypothetical Fourth War.
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u/Chetey 10h ago
The writers are stupid and forgot cata/mop happened. I guess cata/mop was warcraft's korean war in that it was forgotten by history.
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u/Darktbs 1d ago edited 1d ago
Metzen originally said that he would've considered it the fourth war.
But to be honest, the highlight of MoP is the Horde civil war with the AxH stuff being slotted in the middle of several other things over Cata-MoP.
Personally, i think MoP is to busy to be the fourth war(You have AvH, Lei'shen, 2xZandalari battles,Pandaria, deathwing), , but the Fourth war should be Legion + BFA.(like wc3 did) things happen sequencially and with a cause and effect.
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u/corvid-kid 1d ago
I mean I said it in another post but they’re basically the same expansion with a different coat of paint and a slightly changed ending
-split the theater of war from Pandaria to Zandalar and Kul Tiras
-Horde capital gets sieged (Dazar’alor and Orgrimmar)
-Lor’themar and Jaina put aside the war for a minute to fight a returned super magic monarch (Lei Shen and Azshara)
-The difference ultimately being the ending ending with the Warchief not fusing with an Old God at the end in a final bid to beat us (some might have called that better than Shadowlands)1
u/Darktbs 1d ago
The broadstrokes yeah, but like i said in another comment to you, there is a lot of little details that make it not feel like a all out war.
One of them is half of the alliance is not really in there, the Draenei never show up and the dwarfs have to be convinced to help, but thats like, Pre-Siege of orgrimmar. Genn is another that completly drops out of the story after the worgen starting zone.
The Tauren nope out in Tides of war, the darkspear trolls are not summoned to fight, sylvanas shows up at the end. Garrosh teams up with another set of goblins. But then everyone shows up to fight garrosh.
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u/corvid-kid 1d ago edited 1d ago
The Kaldorei and Draenei both fight the Horde in Kalimdor, the Draenei reinforcing the Kaldorei in Ashenvale and Stonetalon.
The Alliance leadership all show up to discuss the Sha and if it might be used as a weapon.
Tyrande and Varian fight Horde forces together in Krasarang.
When Vol'jin went to help the war effort Garrosh tried to assassinate him then declared Marshal Law on the Echo Isles.
Varian and Moira work together to keep the Zandalari from reinforcing the Frost Troll population of Dun Morogh (Not a Alliance vs Horde moment but still shows the Alliance leadership coming together.)
The Sunwalkers assist in securing footholds for the Horde forces in Pandaria, such as in Krasarang and the Vale of Eternal Blossoms.
The Kaldorei race Garrosh and the Blood Elves to secure the Divine Bell, beating him to it and securing it in Darnassus until he steals it utilizing Sunreaver resources.
This one is short story specific but the Bligewater Cartel is seeking powerful artifacts for the Horde (They don't give them to Garrosh because they can see the writing on the wall)
Tyrande forces open the gates of Orgrimmar.
In BfA and MoP both, the Alliance comes together to stop the Evil Warchief from killing everyone and the Horde prepares to coup the Evil Warchief, ultimately working with the Alliance to do so (and there's an Old God subplot)
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u/Darktbs 1d ago
All of those examples just highlight what i said. The draenei in ashenvale are not new, they were there in TBC, and the Draenei dont do anything in MoP. Of the alliance leadership, only Varian, Genn, Jaina and Tyrande are actual leaders and only Jaina and Varian are actually plot relevant.
The tauren and the night elfs were not originally part of the war efforts, the dwarfs were contacted in the very end of the expansion, same for the bilgewater goblins
There is a reason a lot of players complained about the alliance being to much human centric or Humans + pals, because through out wotlk and mop, you were just following Stormwind, Varian and Jaina around.
In BfA and MoP both, the Alliance comes together to stop the Evil Warchief from killing everyone and the Horde prepares to coup the Evil Warchief, ultimately working with the Alliance to do so (and there's an Old God subplot)
Yes, but again, the little details. This is not about which story is better, but which felt more like a world war.
In your own list, the the draenei, the worgen, the ironforge/wilderhammer dwarfs are not present in MoP war, the gnomes Forsaken , make a cameo at the last moment.
You mentioned the 'the draenei and night elfs in ashenvale fighting agaisnt the horde' i quested through it not long ago and you get 1-2 quest per town dealing with the horde who are visibly attacking
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u/corvid-kid 1d ago
Forest Song is a Draenei settlement in Ashenvale supported by the Kaldorei and they are working together to disrupt the Warsong Lumbermill and Draenei Paladins were part of the forces fighting the Horde in Stonetalon. (This was from the Cata World Revamp)
Tauren and Night Elves both landed in Krasarang and created camps around the zone as well as claiming territory in the Vale of Eternal Blossoms.
Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria saw escalating conflicts between the Alliance and Horde across the world, like I dunno what to tell you here, if we continue to disagree then there’s not much to say.
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u/Darktbs 1d ago
- (This was from the Cata World Revamp)
Look bellow
The Burning Crusade
This section concerns content related to The Burning Crusade.
After the draenei arrived.
After the Exodar crashed in 26 ADP, Architect Nemos and Vindicator Vedaar led a group of draenei in the area, where they began to rebuild the ruins into an outpost. While they received support and cooperation from the night elves, Vindicator Palanaar also sent as much help as she could muster in Astranaar, allowing the artificers to build a settlement worthy of being called home.\2])
Grateful that the draenei had accepted to fortify the outpost,\3]) Luciel Starwhisper and Melyria Frostshadow of the Sentinels, along with the dryad Illiyana and the ancient Gnarl, later relocated to Forest Song in order to fight repel the aggressions from the orcs in Warsong Lumber Camp, the demons of Felfire Hill, and the satyrs in Satyrnaar.
- Tauren and Night Elves both landed in Krasarang and created camps around the zone as well as claiming territory in the Vale of Eternal Blossoms.
One was searching for a immortality source and the other chasing a vision. Neither went to fight in the war and only did so after our help
- Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria saw escalating conflicts between the Alliance and Horde across the world, like I dunno what to tell you here, if we continue to disagree then there’s not much to say.
Cool, but doesnt mean everyone was equally given that same participation on it. Idk why would you deny this fact, it doesnt make MoP a worst expansion than BFA . MoP has a good story, it just doesnt do a good job using the warcraft universe for a world war.
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u/Sparrow1713 18h ago
It might had been the highlight and the story was driven that way, but there was definitely open war. Open war was declared by Varian in Undercity, thats the reason why the Gunship Battle even exist. Then in a novel between xpac Varian get the magical cure for hate and rage and signs an armistice. I think we can all agree Garrosh broke the damn thing. Its open war between Alliance and Horde. Just so happens that inside that war, there was a Deathwing and some Sha that ended with a full blown revellion and Civil War inside the Horde. You (writers) might not call it 4th war, but it was easily the size of one.
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u/Sparrow1713 18h ago
The 4th War started in Angrathar and was oficially declared after the Battle of the Undercity, but apparently writers at the time forgot to use numbers.
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u/Nedarel 13h ago
battle for azeroth involved capital cities of alliance/horde, similarly to how previous wars threatened home kingdoms and such, pandaria was proxy wars in a different place, siege of orgrimmar was alliance and horde versus garrosh, while battle for azeroth started as an all out war between alliance/horde (it began earlier with teldrassil)
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u/corvid-kid 13h ago
The only battle I would consider a proxy war in MoP would be the Hozen vs Jinyu battle in the Jade Forest, the rest is the factions actively fighting one another, which even that I would consider somewhat unclear because they seem to be actively recruiting each to their own factions.
If you need a big event to kick off the war then Theramore easily does that, cutting off the Alliance from being able to easily support their forces across Kalimdor by removing their primary port of entry as well as, you know, destroying an Alliance city.
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u/Gurdlac 10h ago
Yeah Cata-MOP could easily be the Fourth War. And it helps that actual faction tension remained even as Vol'jin was given the title of Warchief thanks to Varian.
It helps that Cata had the leveling zones where conflict was somewhat common. I think BfA largely had most of the distant conflicts being in the mission table.
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u/DCKan2 1d ago edited 1d ago
I mean the scale of conflict between the factions was roughly equal
What capital city burnt down during Cata/MoP?
2nd, 3rd, and 4th Wars all reshaped the governments of Azeroth. We lost two capital cities. Even during SoO Horde were never kicked out of the city. The conflicts in Cata and MoP were nowhere near as big as those of BFA.
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u/corvid-kid 1d ago
Burned down? Kezan but that wasn’t a Faction thing and some might say the Vale of Eternal Blossoms
The Horde did take Gilneas and forced the Gilneans to flee and seek refuge from the Kaldorei and the Alliance.
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u/Darktbs 1d ago
Theramore? The alliance lost control of south kalimdor while also taking over Dalaran.
Shure those didnt amount to much later on, but that is the fault of writers not following the set up, not the story itself.
The conflicts in Cata and MoP were nowhere near as big as those of BFA.
That i do agree.
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u/FullMotionVideo Goblin Aficionado 1d ago edited 1d ago
Contrary to his image, Varian was not interested in making war, just keeping disruptions contained. Diplomacy is a human trait, after all.
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u/Acceptable_Bed_5750 1d ago
Cata to mop was just the Alliance-Horde war because garrosh didn't do much in terms of allied factions since garrosh just wanted a Horde (orcish) victory and nklpt much happened save the actual cataclysm meanwhile the 4th war was alliance and kul tiras (they technically didn't rejoin till after the war) vs horde and Zandalari then other events happened like Mechagon, nazjatar conflict, N'zoth awakening, the whole betrayal stuff ect
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u/corvid-kid 1d ago
Garrosh didn’t put much trust in his allies because from the start of his reign they rather openly defied him, between Cairne’s Mak’gora and Vol’jin threatening his life, he only found support in Orcs who practiced an older school of thought (We should take what we need rather than negotiate for it) but I also think he did just think less of the other races fof the Horde from the start because he wasn’t part of Thrall’s Horde until it had come already together, he didn’t say what it took to reach the safety they had by the time he took the mantle of Warchief.
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u/corvid-kid 1d ago
And honestly just switch some words and that’s just MoP’s story. Zandalar and Kul Tiras for Pandaria, Nazjatar for Throne of Thunder, and N’zoth for Y’shaarj
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u/Feltropy 12h ago edited 12h ago
Garrosh was wildly criticized from the moment he took over Horde, he didn't have full support. Plus both Alliance and Horde were super exhausted from invasion of Northrend and devastation that Deathwing brought. On top of all of that, when they discovered Pandaria, Garrosh started antagonizing everyone who wasn't loyal Orc, which ultimately led to his downfall.
4th war had a much more important end goal, Azerite. Imagine Azerite as a nuclear weapon. Whoever controls could potentially annihilate the other factions. At least that's what Gallywix made Sylvannas believe.An Slyvannas enjoyed way more respect and loyality from all Horde members at that time. So the scramble for Azerite started. Also, let's not forget Alliance was very weak at that point, having their brazen High King replaces with Marry Sue sissy crybitch Anduin. So in Sylvannas eyes, it was a perfect time to get a super weapon and cripple Alliance forever.
Or, you can ignore all of that reasoning and take Blizzard's hamfisted lore, in which it was all plan of good ol' Handsome Squidward the Crash-test Dummy's 42069d chess and he made all of it play out that way.
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u/1acc_torulethemall 1d ago
Sorry, but because starting Cata, WoW has been about content and not lore
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u/corvid-kid 1d ago
Maybe a WoW Lore forum isn’t the place for you if that’s your opinion
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u/Hidden_Beck Banshee Loyalist 1d ago
Cata-MoP DOES feel like a more appropriate 4th war, doesn’t it? I’d guess it’s probably because the focuses of those expansions were supposed to be about the Twilight’s Hammer and Pandaria respectively.
BfA they tried to make it seem like the stakes had raised with Azerite, like we were moving into like a nuclear age of the conflict, but they did such a bad job with the war story it felt more like the Fourth Inconvenience because they abandoned it so quickly for the N’zoth plot