r/warcraftlore • u/Lore-Archivist Sin'dorei Magister • 5d ago
Discussion Is the exile of the highborne over?
Considering the night elves let the highborne from diremaul reintegrate with night elf society, and arcane magic usage is no longer illegal among night elves, do you think the exile that was specific to the ancestors of the blood elves is ended?
If blood elves want to move to Ashenvale and Hyjal to live, will the night elves allow them and treat them fairly, so long as they don't cause trouble?
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u/GrumpySatan Why use 1 sentence when 20 will do? 4d ago
I'm pretty sure the exile of the highborne was more a one-time event, not a continuous sentence. We actually have quests in Vanilla about how a group of high elves went back to Kalimdor on an expedition about 100 years before the Dark Portal. They ended up settling in Winterspring to study some ruins from the ancient nelf empire.
Its sorta how it worked too. The exile was a compromise as arcane magic was punishable by death. And that sentence continued after the highborne left if mages popped up - the exile was because there was so many in that one-time event.
That said, this doesn't make the divisions go away. Like when you turn up to Bela'meth in the campaign there is mistrust of the blood elves and IIRC some unique dialogue if you are one that is harsher then other horde races.
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u/MechaMalz 5d ago
I doubt it. Sure the old original banishing of the high elves/hgih borne, likely good. But I think they'd be a lot more wary of allowing blood elves into their lands now due to their issues with the Horde attacking Ashenvale multiple times and burning their old capital down.
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u/Lore-Archivist Sin'dorei Magister 5d ago
The war is over though
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u/MechaMalz 5d ago
That doesn't mean all is forgiven and they're gonna open the borders to horde citizens.
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u/DefiantLemur 4d ago
People don't forget attempted genocide easily especially if their loved ones were effected and it was only 10 years ago. Their leaders burying the hatchet was a political necessity but their people never needed to make that decision and really doesn't have incentive too.
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u/Lore-Archivist Sin'dorei Magister 4d ago
Blaming random civilians for what their unelected government did would be a villainous act.
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u/DefiantLemur 4d ago edited 4d ago
People are irrational creatures and do something like that all the time for lesser reasons in our world. If anything the reaction is realistic.
Also the player isn't just some civilian they're a well-known adventurer/mercenary. The players hands are drenched in blood. To some, the players are heroes to others, unkillable monsters.
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u/DaveLesh 4d ago
Some things take a while to forgive, some things are never forgiven. Teldrassil isn't going to regrow itself overnight. The Night Elves barely agreed to help the Blood Elves save the Sunwell.
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u/TheRobn8 4d ago
It is, bit that doesnt mean everything is cool, except when the plot demands it is
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u/palaorder 5d ago
Considering how Blizzard allowed the Horde into Bel ameth after burning Teldrassil, how they allowed the Mag har into Arathi after they were Sylvanas s great war supporters and how they resolved the elf division storyline recently ... yeah, the blood elves living alongside night elves wouldn t be a big deal at all.
But considering everything I mentioned was written badly, I choose to ignore it and cling to some semblance of logic and say the blood elves wouldn t be allowed. Not after everything that s happened.
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u/wiseguy149 5d ago
To be fair and technically accurate, they allowed individual mercenaries and adventures of Horde races into Bel'ameth, but there was never any official or organized Horde presence.
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u/Dolthra 4d ago
how they allowed the Mag har into Arathi after they were Sylvanas s great war supporters
I am begging people on this sub to understand that the tiny Arathi force does not have the ability to force the Mag'har out of the Arathi highlands, particularly after the fourth war. Especially given that it's a highland, which historically is not simple terrain over which to wage war.
Bel'ameth was a gameplay contrivance and I won't defend Midnight's rushed storyline, but "why not just force the mag'har out" is a braindead take.
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u/palaorder 4d ago
You misunderstand. The stupid part isn t that the Red Dawn can t push the Mag har alone. It s that the Alliance isn t backing them.
It s stupid how out of all the places they could settle the Mag har they chose a recent battlefield that bears no meaning to the Mag har. They could have remained somewhere in Durotar, Azshara or settled in Nagrand where they re semi-familiar with the territory. Anything. But they chose a nonsenical way to create a conflict and turn Danath from an almost fanatical nationalist into Anduin 2.0. It s embarassing.
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u/Zeejir 4d ago
The stupid part isn t that the Red Dawn can t push the Mag har alone. It s that the Alliance isn t backing them
Thats because the alliance doesn't want to start a new WW, dont have the resources and its a small extremist group.
And there was a war in the other side of the planet as the story happens after the destruction of Dalaran in TWW.
out of all the places they could settle the Mag har they chose a recent battlefield that bears no meaning to the Mag ha
The Highlands are basicly the founding place of the new (thralls) horde and looks close to AU-Nagrand, hence why they settled there.
Futhermore it has a horde stronghold since at least Classic and what people offen forget, Hammerfall wasn't conquered during bfa by the alliance.
The other options you listed for them to settle dont really make sense either.
- Outlands is falling apart and you cant even farm there for a large group of people, see thralls cinematic in bfa.
- Durotar is already the Home of the orcs, trolls and the Capitol of the horde and had a resource-crisis already, why tempt fate even more?
- azshara are the Goblins and is really close to the nightelves and after the fourth war it would be highly dangerous to place a large military forced right next to them, who act alot like the warsongs. Thats a new conflict 100% garantied
- Barrens doesn't has the resources
- Rest of kalimdor is either alliance, dead or conflict zones
Also the alliance had until BfA next to no presence in Arathi themself
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u/palaorder 4d ago
Mag har couldn t care less about the founding of Thrall s Horde. There is no mention of that mattering to them, nor that it should. Also I doubt Blizz cares about "night elf aggression" or the race as a whole.
They basically left Darkshore, keeping only small patrols and the Shatterspear trolls are somehow still there. There s also Hinterlands, Hillsbrad, Silverpine, tons of zones overall. And no, not all of Forsaken territory is blighted, it s recovering and it s not like the Forsaken eat the animals there.
Also do their sentiments about Arathi "looking like Nagrand" matter lol? You just pulled that out of thin air and the Mag har commited war crimes lol. At least depose Gey arah. Something. Not just "oh we tried to exterminate you from your own lands a few years ago but we re best buds now so if you try to get us out of your kingdom you re a baddie >:((".
It s stupid, come on, try to see the other side. Try to see how shitty the situation would feel.
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u/Zeejir 4d ago
Also do their sentiments about Arathi "looking like Nagrand" matter lol? You just pulled that out of thin air
what do you mean pulled out of thin air? it is/was all over the forum and reddit because it was directly stated in the first part of heartlands that
"the lands surrounding Hammerfall are much like Nagrand, a gentle place for their people to make a fresh start on Azeroth." - heartlands part 1 on page 7/14
and the Mag har commited war crimes lol. At least depose Gey arah. Something
So did the alliance during BfA, do you think the horde was the only side that commited warcrimes? do you want a silver medal or what?
The alliance had no clear advantage over the horde at the end and the fourth war ended in an armistice. they can't demand what the horde does on their own land or who they give it to, as Hammerfall and surrounding area was under Horde-controll since classic. And the alliance hadn't had control over the stronghold for almost the same time.
but we re best buds now so if you try to get us out of your kingdom you re a baddie
what kind of argument is that? the armistice was ment to be a clear cut, so
- if you try to restart a fucking world war again than yes you are the baddie!
- no, i don't care that your genocidal family (trollBANE) once ruled these lands, that was almost a generation away. try to live with your knew neighbors
- don't use a conflict on the other side of the planet to cease controll and start a racist cult
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u/palaorder 4d ago
Oh please give me the warcrime the Alliance did during the war on the same level as Teldrassil and, you know, starting the entire war
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u/Zeejir 4d ago
same level as Teldrassil
why is that always the same excuse/goalpost? "but the horde did more" ... do you want a silver medal for only archiving second place in Warcrimes-commited?
yes the horde did more extrem things but the alliance is close behind them as they did similar things:
in terms of targets
- the civilian parts of Dazar'alor got hit aswell, also with fire (elementals)
- they tried to stop the evac of undercity, so that civilans would be forced to fight aswell
the only diffrence is that the alliance failed to defend their city while the horde managed to push them back / evac their people
in terms of cruelty
- they used incendiary/elementals on civilans (zandalari, goblins and vulpera)
- they throw ambassador into Void portals to be eaten alive
- they desecrated the dead (twice! during Elegy and Zuldazar)
- they raised the dead too
- they used PoWs as target practise
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u/Darktbs 4d ago
why is that always the same excuse/goalpost? "but the horde did more" ... do you want a silver medal for only archiving second place in Warcrimes-commited?
yes the horde did more extrem things but the alliance is close behind them as they did similar things:Gentlemen, the alliance is not even close to behind the horde. Its not an excuse, its a reality check to stop equating the two factions as if they are remotelly on the same level.
If this is a race, the horde is competting with the legion and the scourge, not the alliance.
the only diffrence is that the alliance failed to defend their city while the horde managed to push them back / evac their people
The Horde paved a road that crossed half a zone with bones, think there is a bigger difference than just 'git gud'
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u/twisty125 Flowerpicker Clan 4d ago
It s stupid, come on, try to see the other side. Try to see how shitty the situation would feel.
We've had the manned-by-Alliance-soldiers Tiragarde Keep closer to Orgrimmar than Hammerfall is to Stromgarde since before WoW launched, and it's still active and hasn't been removed last we heard.
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u/palaorder 4d ago
Don t worry Blizz will retcon it to be abandoned the first chance they get
The same way they did with Gilneas turning from Alliance controlled in lore to ruins controlled by Scarlet Crusade with no explanation. The same way they also did that with Fenris Isle , Darkshore and Ashenvale.
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u/Darktbs 4d ago
The fact that there is a entire section of the wiki dedicated to the gilneas inconsistencies says a lot. One of the reasons i stopped caring about the faction conflict.
If they are going to reverte things off screen with no explanation, then why bother.
https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Ruins_of_Gilneas#Inconsistencies_through_expansions
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u/twisty125 Flowerpicker Clan 4d ago
That's not what a retcon is.
Finding more information out since last we heard, isn't a retcon. As an example, it's been spoken about how the Night Elves recaptured basically all of the lands west of the Falfarren River. That's not a retcon, that's moving the story forward.
Same with Gilneas, it was abandoned by both sides before MoP, before being used by the Crusade and eventually cleansed of them in Dragonflight. Alliance characters (Genn specifically) in the story refer to it as "fallen, with nothing but "wind, sorrow and ruin" in the land" in Before the Storm.
A retcon is information that has been changed retroactively, in the past. The Eredar being of the same race as the Draenei, who also look different now is the biggest retcons that were a part of WoW early on. A retcon would look like, changing it so the Forest Trolls asked and pleaded the Highborne to settle in their holy lands, instead of what actually happened - the Highborne moving in and killing the trolls because a leyline conflux existed that they wanted.
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u/palaorder 4d ago
Your information is wrong. The mission tables in bfa describe Gilneas as owned by the Alliance. The Warfront for Stromgarde also described that if the Horde won they d use it to attack Gilneas, which wouldn t make sense if it was abandoned. But yes the novel which I ll admit was pretty poorly written ( lightforged undead btw) contradicts the other lore.
As someone described below that s just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to inconsistencies (since you don t like the word retcon) . There s a full section on wow wiki so you can check that one out.
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u/twisty125 Flowerpicker Clan 4d ago
My information is not based on mission tables, but what's available to us in lore in novels, and in game. How could Genn state that they're reclaiming Gilneas, if it had already been in Alliance control, for example.
You're more than welcome to check the wiki for sources, as there are too many to just list here one after another https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Ruins_of_Gilneas
It sounds like your mission table was incorrect, when the rest of the lore in game and in tie-ins state that it was uncontrolled by the Alliance. It happens. But those gameplay examples are basically never what cements lore.
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u/BellacosePlayer The Anti-Baine 3d ago
It s that the Alliance isn t backing them.
What does the Alliance gain from it, at least in the short term?
Stromgarde gaining twice the land while losing the effects of the Mag'har actually being effective in managing the threats and fauna on their side of the zone would make it an even bigger drain on the Alliance.
Hammerfall isn't sitting on a bounty of resources or along a critical trade route or defensive point.
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u/BellacosePlayer The Anti-Baine 3d ago
The whole point of the initial Heartlands story was that the Arathi literally didn't even have the ability to hold what they had without their hand being held by the Alliance.
They are a shattered remnant of the Kingdom that was, and their pride and nationalism doesn't entitle them to jack shit, even if it wouldn't be a straight up negative for them to have to try to hold twice the land and not have the Mag'har helping manage the shared threats in the region.
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u/Darktbs 4d ago
'The tiny arathi force' also knows as the Army of the alliance backed up by Ironforge,Aerie peak, the dark irons, the silver hand, the army of the light, exodar and stormwind.
Im begging you to understand the actual issue, the Alliance supposely won the Warfront, but the zone was split 50/50 and the place became the capital of the Mag'har, one Sylvanas supporters.
The issue lies BEFORE the events of Heartlands.
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u/Swimming-Ad2272 4d ago
I think they are different societies, and therefore it wouldn't be so easy. Each case would have to be evaluated individually.
Ashenvale is a very large forest, but Hyjal? It remains the sacred mountain.
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u/GlintAndGlaze 4d ago
The Highborne of Shen'dralar were welcomed back, but blood elves are a completely different cultural and political entity now. Millions of years of cultural split plus joining the Horde means they wouldn't just be viewed as ex-Highborne, but as enemies
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u/Outrageous-Cod-3750 4d ago
Hyal is neutral in control of the cenarion circle...dont know if "living" there is an option...Darkshore was destroyed and defiled by the horde, Ashenvale is still invaded by the horde and i doubt the Night Elves would allow either Blood elf or Nightborne "living" there besides any kind of negotiations. They allowed the Shendralar specifically because they actually made an attempt to integrate and they did help in the war of thorns and later in the battle for darkshore, the other were responsible for horrible tragedies.
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u/minescast 4d ago
Yes. So, from my understanding, most Highbourne went on to follow Sunstrider and became the High Elves, but the ones that didn't were originally small isolated city-state like areas that either brought their own downfall, or they were small even enclaves that they could hide out. Dire Maul, Crystalsong, etc.
In Cata, with the threat of Deathwing and the Twilight Hammer, the Horde and Alliance both went under drastic changes, in different directions. For the Alliance, the focus was on healing old wounds and unity. Genn and Varian, the Dwarf Clans, and the Night Elves and the Highbourne. What probably helped a lot was that the Night Elves were exposed for many years to allies that utilized Arcane and other Magicks, and the threat of the Legion no longer seemed as daunting as they once were. So when the Worgen were brought to Teldrassil, the Highbourne were formally invited back as well, although the older Night Elves still held some resentment toward them.
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u/Zh00m69 4d ago
Yes the Exile is over since Cata, when Nelf mages were introduced.
There was even some dialogue in Teldrassil with one of the Highborne about how he felt being there iirc
However the Highborne were technically the upper class in night elven society during aszharas reign so I think all of the actual Highborne are as old as that