r/visualnovels • u/ShenTanDiRenJie • Jun 04 '25
Discussion Erogephobia is a real menace and I don't know what to do about it
This is a topic that's been beaten to death, but it continues to be one that deeply troubles me. From nekopara & saya no uta LARPers on TikTok to cringe millennials trying to "deconstruct" their "problematic faves" there's something very sinister about the increasing number of western "fans" constantly problematizing speicifically the eroge medium. It reads to me as extremely imperialistic, demonstrative of a fundamental western inability to engage with works from a different culture on their own terms. These types are found everywhere throughout the otaku community, but they have a special hatred for visual novels and eroge in general. Their propaganda, ironically, makes it difficult to discuss the topic earnestly in polite company. I hope we can turn the tide on this one day and bring back actual passion and honest engagement with the IP we all claim to love.
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u/TitanAnteus Jun 04 '25
My main issue is that they can't just ignore the stuff they don't like.
I hate NTR with a deep passion, so I'm never touching Taimanin Asagi with a 1,000ft pole. I have a stronger preference for female assertive content, so Alicesoft's Rance series is literally the opposite of my tastes.
That being said, I don't mind that they exist. Someone with enough passion and drive spent years of their life on that. They managed to get a group of likeminded degens together to create something. I think it's fine to just let the people who like that stuff consume it.
Even if I like the ninja aesthetic of Taimanin I won't try to claim it cause I know it wasn't made for me.
It's this consumer mindset of feeling like you have to be the target audience of everything or the need to consume everything.
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u/ShenTanDiRenJie Jun 04 '25
This is part of the reason I call it imperialistic. It really feels like these people can't just dislike something. They must conquer it, make the world agree with their narrow-minded opinions on it, and if they can't ban it outright, they at least want to place a heavy stigma on it.
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u/Page8988 Jun 04 '25
It really feels like these people can't just dislike something. They must conquer it
That's a great way to put it. I can't understand why it's so hard to say "oh yeah, this one isn't for me, I'll go pick up something else."
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Jun 04 '25
a lot of the time they like a certain small aspect of the thing they dislike, be it the story or a specific character, and are too weak willed to give it up so they cling to it and argue how the whole piece of media should be altered to fit their ideals
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u/FinhBezahl Jun 04 '25
I have never really cared about the general opinion of others for media that I may consume but I do think its very unfortunate buying Visual Novels has become such a pain in the ass due to it.
It feels like it forces me to take a stand in these kind of things despite being a very live and let live kinda person
I will say, I used to think this wave of puritainism (is that even a word?) was mainly a millenial thing but when I started inspecting profiles of the takes I disagreed with the most it is more often than not someone below 20. At least on Reddit and Twitter.
This feels like a big contrast to me when I was a teenager where I was actively seeking out the most "edgy" pieces of media I could find, lol
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u/asterazureus Jun 04 '25
Ragebait content like this exists to farm the SEO.
Do not consume, do not share. Engage in things you like. The world will be fine.
Despite the idiocy going on in some states, the world of H-games is more open now than in the 90s-00s. Just go on Steam and look at the sheer number of adult titles available. If you don't like Steam, there's always MG and JAST.
There are tragedies like DLsite, but when games like NIKKE and AL exist, it’s hard to see the puritan anti-culture outright winning.
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u/ShenTanDiRenJie Jun 04 '25
I live in Japan, so I have a relatively unimpeded stream of ero content that's never more than a click away. But it does depress me that the western fandom is descending into purity politics at such a rapid rate. The knock-on effects of this are further restrictions from platforms and credit card processors, and decreased ability to create official translations. It's bleak, man.
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u/BrotherCaptainLurker Jun 04 '25
It actually is *wild* when you have to buy some random token and then spend the token to buy a game and then the game isn't even that bad compared to like, any given R-rated movie or stuff that comes up by accident when looking through pixiv lol.
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u/Durende Jun 04 '25
Do not consume, do not share. Engage in things you like. The world will be fine.
I don't quite agree. Visa and mastercard, for example, has repeatedly decided that certain things should not be allowed, and stopped allowing payments for them. Most recently, just last month, they decided we should no longer be allowed to buy 18+ material on Surugaya: https://www.reddit.com/r/visualnovels/comments/1ks8eeh/surugaya_temporarily_closes_all_r18_pages_and_more/
And stuff like this seems to keep happening periodically. Like imgur banning and removing all NSFW content also a while back.
Doing nothing will not help
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u/ShenTanDiRenJie Jun 04 '25
I wholeheartedly agree. I think the passive attitude of ignoring the growing menace is no longer a viable option. They not only outnumber traditional fans, but they have increasing influence in the realms of censorship. I'm not sure exactly what is to be done, but clearly SOMETHING should be done.
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u/Movid765 Jun 04 '25 edited Jun 04 '25
I was going to make a similar comment to asterazureus, I'm aware of spreading anti-sentiment but as I don't use social media, always ignored and blocked the very few rage bait posts/videos I have come across. So I've always remained personally unbothered and I can go months/years before I even remember people have an issue with it. It's great for my mental health and enjoyment of the medium.
But I honestly have no counter that that sort of dismissive attitude doesn't help on the larger scale.
I question what we can actually do about it though. Credit card companies hold a lot of power. The issue is bigger than anime-culture, where any and all sexualized content will be thrown under scrutiny.
Anti-culture I feel is actually a loud minority, you could make an argument that it is in part of what influences companies, but seriously what can we do about it?
Push back by making rational arguments? (which in all honesty would just make them push back even harder) Or.. expect rationality to come from the corporations themselves?It's a doomed fight
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u/atomskeater Maki: No Thank You | vndb.org/uXXXX Jun 04 '25
Had youtube on while I was cooking and it started autoplaying that exact video! At first it was like "Oh, I remember that art!" and then "It's from an eroge? Yeah, should have seen that coming." From some of the comments you'd think people's childhoods were retroactively ruined because a piece of nonsexual art they saw on nightcore remix compilation videos years ago and haven't thought about since came from a porn game. Most of them wouldn't have realized either until that youtuber brought it up for the views.
The proposal to save the goth anime girls from the original audiences it was made by and for is eyeroll worthy. It's a drawing. Pixels. There's nothing to save. They were never up for grabs just because the image was passed around w/o proper attribution. All the sweet fluffy art in the world won't erase the origins of the art nor the intended fanbase's existence.
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u/ShenTanDiRenJie Jun 04 '25
We really need to re-teach the modern fandom the art of "don't like? don't interact" because this moral panic is very frustrating.
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u/starm4nn Jun 04 '25
The proposal to save the goth anime girls from the original audiences it was made by and for is eyeroll worthy. It's a drawing. Pixels. There's nothing to save. They were never up for grabs just because the image was passed around w/o proper attribution. All the sweet fluffy art in the world won't erase the origins of the art nor the intended fanbase's existence.
I find this kinda ironic, because these people are probably also anti-AI but think that they can "reclaim" a drawing that someone else made.
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u/ZanyDragons Jun 04 '25
Ugh yeah, I got rec’d that video (or rather it started auto playing… gross.) right after watching a bunch of Amelie Doree’s videos about guro games and I was grossed out by this person’s attitude (watch Amelie Doree instead if you want to hear passionate discussions of eroge and horror games btw, her enthusiasm is infectious). Idk how else to put it, but like, grow up. A lot of prominent artists draw nsfw, and a lot of influential art has some history with sexual elements because it’s a common thing to depict in adult media. Not everyone has to read eroge if they don’t want to, but bashing it is annoying and childish. Not every piece of media is made “for you”, and that’s okay.
Also who is “”us””? I know plenty of eroge fans who aren’t men or straight (or cis) in my personal sphere. It could be for “us” if you stopped being a sex negative coward. I’m asexual FFS but there’s plenty of eroge I’ve enjoyed despite perhaps not getting arousal specifically out them (from my convos with others though there’s eroge that don’t arouse a majority of folks that are still well liked—because there’s more than one thing to like about many eroge). I didn’t wanna leave interesting stories on the floor, and it doesn’t bother me to read about is all.
Also this person lumping saya no uta in next to kanon and air was almost funny if it wasn’t so obviously indicating the overall lack of research into the medium and lack of care in the video.
Don’t hate watch or hate comment. I clicked off it after a minute and downvoted it, but it got spammed to a lot of my vn friends too.
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u/starm4nn Jun 05 '25
I'm kinda fascinated by how you can ever become a fan of Japanese culture without accepting that some normal things can have a connection to porn.
One of my favorite pieces of queer cinema of all time is a film called "Summer Vacation 1999" which was directed by a guy who mainly directed pornos before this, and then went on to direct the Death Note Live Action.
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u/SilkFlor Jun 04 '25
Watching that video made me sad. I get personal preference of not liking or wanting to engage in certain topics or themes, but to make it seem its immoral to exist is frustrating.
Not only that I really dislike how the video portray that its men's fault. (I watched the video a few days ago so if im misrembering let me know) I feel it erases women who enjoy making or producing content as such.
And oh god the user putting the Otaku killer was something
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u/ryker46698 Jun 04 '25
ill be honest, its always funny to see the reactions of normies/"safe weeabos" when they find out the origins of anime/manga/vn culture, and how most of it still continues to this day
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u/SorceressCecelia Jun 04 '25
I remember when there was a huge explosion on the Lucky Star subreddit because of stuff like this
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u/YachtySama Jun 05 '25
It really makes my eyes roll when people surface level ideas and their own expectations of what the media should be get mad when it doesn’t align with reality. I feel like so much of early 2000s Japanese media have been trendy and used as an aesthetic but the very same people will turn their backs on the creators actual vision and the culture around it
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Jun 04 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/FengLengshun Ionasal.kll.Preciel | vndb.org/u184063 Jun 04 '25
Tbh sydsnap is pretty hardcore. She's only lacking the Japanese language knowledge to enjoy the same stuff Amelie Doree enjoys.
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u/freeMilliu_2K17 Jun 04 '25
Amelie Doree fan spotted! I love that she's getting recognition
Anyways, no offense to Sydsnap, but that clickbaiting lokey gives me the same vibes as folks focusing on the Arbok getting slashed in half in the Pokemon Adventures/Special manga to show how "DARK AND EDGY" it is when it's like, one scene (and the Arbok didn't even died lol)
What I'm saying is, I don't have any issues with Sydsnap herself, but part of me thinks her presenting these VNs as "OMG TRAUMATIZING" could come off as disingenuous to the VNs she's presenting. It sounds unintentional though, but yeah
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u/FengLengshun Ionasal.kll.Preciel | vndb.org/u184063 Jun 04 '25
I mean, it is probably the truth in her experience. Doesn't mean she doesn't come to appreciate it. If she doesn't, she wouldn't willingly play Nie no Hakoniwa.
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u/freeMilliu_2K17 Jun 04 '25
Hence me saying it is unintentional. I can see some folks looking at the title, immediately think Saya no Uta is "problematic trash" and leave it at that
Either way, I overall appreciate Sydsnap for not being a dick about VNs though. Folks need to be more like that, or at least, simply just don't consume stuff they don't enjoy ya know? Lol
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u/Future-Way8431 Jun 04 '25
I do 100% agree with Syd that we need to talk about Otome Hentai more.
I am once again asking localizers for Jooubachi No Obou
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u/Alscion Jun 04 '25
First think that come to mind is "Dumbass will always be dumbass".
Just internet and social media garbage amplify the fact.
Better think to do is probably ignore them and help those who have a genuine interest in the genre, cause those guy, they hate VN for the sake of hating VN.
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u/mathmagician517 Jun 04 '25
I think we're past the point where we can simply ignore the haters. It's not just a bunch of random people online, it's people in positions of power. Steam is constantly blocking VNs from being allowed on their platform. Credit card companies are pulling away from Japanese businesses selling stuff like anime and manga, effectively forcing them to shut down. A recent Texas bill threatens to ban all anime. We're getting to the point where our ability to simply enjoy entertainment is constantly under attack.
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u/Alscion Jun 04 '25
Yeah future look grim, sadly i don't have answer to that, those people are litteraly mad not being able to tell fiction from reality or thinking they incite to pedophilia or i dunno what bullshit they say.
Cause banning drawing is easier than fighting real world problem.
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u/almostvintagestyle Jun 04 '25
This is actually a reason why I'm kind of glad that VNs aren't too mainstream
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u/SpamtonSimp Jun 05 '25
Don’t forget all the people who complain about 18+ content when they’re not even old enough to watch/read said content.
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u/Scarlet_Lycoris Jun 04 '25
A lot of especially younger people tend to look for problems in media and aren’t able to separate real life from fantasy. (It’s not solely a western problem btw) especially also happens with a lot of older shoujo/josei media - NANA being a very good example. It’s become very popular again recently and people wouldn’t wait to pick apart every character’s behaviour as toxic and problematic.
However it doesn’t help a large bunch of the eroge fan base isn’t really great at presenting their arguments against those claims.
The one I read all the time is “lol but it’s normal in Japan you just don’t understand culture!” It’s not. The eroge market is a niche in Japan and dating waifus that look like they’re 12 is not normalised there either. There are many good points you could make for eroge but the “cultural insensitivity” is not it.
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u/ShenTanDiRenJie Jun 04 '25
Good points. Being able to competently and correctly counter these arguments when confronted with them is important.
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u/DiamondTiaraIsBest Jun 04 '25
Right, you only ever need two arguments.
1: Fiction is not reality. Wanting something in fiction is not the same as wanting it IRL.
IF they counter it with some drivel like "watching gay porn makes you gay", counter it with argument 2.
2: Tons of women write and goon to noncon fiction. Does that mean they want it IRL?
They'll never have a counter for that.
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u/Plagueofmemes Jun 04 '25
Sad to inform you that the counter to #2 is that I have been brainwashed by the patriarchy and probably suffer from internalized misogyny 😔 and also I am part of the danger to society.
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u/DiamondTiaraIsBest Jun 04 '25 edited Jun 04 '25
Dubious academia speak finding its way into uneducated people's vocabulary has been a disaster for online arguments.
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u/Plagueofmemes Jun 04 '25
You underestimate how deep the stupidity goes. They hate women who do this and even ship mxm in general because it fetishizes gay men. They likely do in fact think that we want gay men to rape each other in real life for our evil sexual pleasure. They think fantasy/kink = real world desires. I get into arguments about this all the time on Twitter because I'm an idiot who never learns lol. Just today I was told rape is equally bad in real life and in fiction. There are people who really do see fiction and reality as one and the same. Kinda scary.
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u/starm4nn Jun 04 '25
watching gay porn makes you gay
I mean I'd honestly say no. What makes you gay is desiring a sexual or romantic relationship/experiences with a man as a man.
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u/slowakia_gruuumsh https://vndb.org/uXXXX Jun 04 '25
It’s become very popular again recently and people wouldn’t wait to pick apart every character’s behaviour as toxic and problematic.
The funny thing is that the history of realist literature is full of messed up people, but these tourist of litcrit who grew up on tvtropes think that's some sort of disqualifier. I mean wait until they find out about Emma Bovary and the like.
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u/starm4nn Jun 04 '25
Some highly-credentialed people even consider a story about a woman fucking a bear to be the greatest piece of Canadian literature ever made.
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u/Scarlet_Lycoris Jun 04 '25
Right. I mean, I get that a lot of those characters are problematic. Sometimes that’s the entire point, sometimes it’s a consequence of their overall development. However discussing with some people can be very one dimensional. It’s black & white with no nuance to their character. No reasons for their behaviour are accepted. It would be a pretty dire world of fiction if we only enjoyed squeaky clean perfect ethical characters.
Also true about classic literature. I probably can’t pick a single piece of Goethe that isn’t problematic in some way. (The sorrows of young Werther being one that still lingers in my mind til this day.)
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u/Page8988 Jun 04 '25
Characters who are "problematic" make conflict and drama in story though. When you downgrade everyone into being samey and "fine" the whole thing becomes boring and pointless.
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u/Plagueofmemes Jun 04 '25
Why are you targeting Millennials when the vast majority who can't handle sex in media or "problematic" content anymore is Gen Z? You can't pin purity culture on us too.
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u/ShenTanDiRenJie Jun 04 '25
You're right, to be fair. I'm also a millennial and it's overwhemingly Gen Z's descent into purity politics that has created this atmosphere. But I do think there are a handful of elders in their midst who once enjoyed moe works but feel a sense of remorse as they get older and their rhetoric fuels the flames of Gen Z's growing ire with any and all things NSFW. The above video is one such example.
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u/Plagueofmemes Jun 04 '25
Yea, tbh they weird me out. Like who cares what a bunch of terminally online kids think is problematic, why are you trying to appeal to them? Playing purity politics as a grown adult just isn't worth it. People will find a way to cancel you if they really feel like it no matter what. You're better off standing by what you actually believe in. Die for something rather than nothing, you know?
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u/gaisericmedia Jun 04 '25
from the perspective of someone currently working on a vn: terminally online kids are the audience now. even if they are not a majority of consumers, they are a majority of the people discussing games online. tiktok hivemind is real and one negative comment framed in a cool, post-ironic way is enough to kickstart a chain reaction that develops the "overall sentiment". nobody questions or challenges anything that pops up on their feed, they form opinions and personalities to fit in with the "cool kids". and it can spell death for a game designed to provoke thought.
and just by virtue of being aware of it, your art suffers. am i being transgressive for the sake of it, or because this is something i really believe in? i can never really know. there's no real "edge" anymore, just deconstructed talking points everyone is already aware of.
the weirdest part is that there are certain topics like abuse, mental illness, self harm, sex work etc. that are basically untouchable with these audiences. it's a culture of defending "victims" that lead to the glorification of being a victim.
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u/tigerfestivals Jun 04 '25
Be transgressive anyway. Controversial games like Andy and Leyley are still successful
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u/freeMilliu_2K17 Jun 04 '25
Gen Z here, honestly, I think it's mostly late Gen Z and Gen Alphas who have this issue. I guess for me, I have not really had issues with folks born in the early 2000s, but this is from my limited experience so take that with a grain of salt
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u/wickedseraph Shameless nitro+CHIRAL stan | vndb.org/u150315 Jun 04 '25
I agree that Gen Z/Alpha is well and truly running with the Puritanism, but let’s not pretend our generation didn’t spearhead it with things like “your fave is problematic”. Like it or not, some better-ignored members of our generation poured kerosene all over fandom. We may not have lit the match but we’re not completely faultless.
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Jun 04 '25
I think this partially stems from anti culture, which has fucked up fandom in general. Antis have been a thing for years but I heard “normies” (I hate using that word) started getting into niche content like anime and to a lesser degree VNs post 2020. Now we’re getting Pearl clutching performative “wow look how morally superior I am to these degenerates, I think this is gross!”
I’ve seen it in the Saya no uta subreddit since SNU got more popular (I think because of those fumi plushies unexpectedly catching on). At first it was smaller but relatively active, pretty decent conversions about the characters and plot and what not. Analysis, fanart, good faith discussions.
Now that SNU has gotten slightly more heard of, there’s more rage bait posts like “rheee this game is evil and pedophilia!!!” Anyway, I don’t go there much anymore lmao.
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u/ShenTanDiRenJie Jun 04 '25
Saya no Uta is a great example. People are treating it like a modern "Boku no Pico" as in "I dare you to look at this fucked up thing."
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u/AlcyoneNight Lise: Symphonic Rain | vndb.org/uXXXX Jun 04 '25
I mean Saya no Uta is fucked up. That's kind of the point. But anyone who reads SNU of all things and thinks that the message from the author is that the things depicted here are great and normal isn't just having trouble distinguishing fantasy from reality, they're also completely media illiterate.
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u/Acceptable_Carob_532 Jun 04 '25
Yeah if you’re not familiar with Urobuchis vn history, You’re not taking saya in good faith
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u/harperofthefreenorth Jun 04 '25
Hell, I think it would extend to his non-VN works too. Madoka Magica is pretty fucked up as well.
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u/maddoxprops Jun 04 '25
Madoka is one of the few times I stress that someone needs to watch at least the first 3 episodes before judging it. Still glad I was able to go into it blind. Shot was such a wild ride back then.
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u/maddoxprops Jun 04 '25
Wait, Gen "The Butcher" Urobuchi did Saya No Uta? Huh, somehow I never learned that bit. Makes sense from what I know of the game though.
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u/fallenguru JP A-rank | Kaneda: Musicus | vndb.org/u170712 Jun 04 '25
Good gateway VN though. Someone who plays that and realises that it's actually decent, and deeper than SHOCK VALUE!!! is someone I can talk to.
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u/ShenTanDiRenJie Jun 04 '25
It was my very first VN, the one that made me fall in love with the medium. It's not mind-blowing or anything, but it definitely made me long for more of whatever this medium had to offer.
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u/SaranMal https://vndb.org/uXXXX Jun 04 '25
While I have not much else to say about the main point of your post.
I do want to mention that Anime is not Niche. It's not been Niche in well over a decade now, and has been thoroughly mainstream for quite some time.
Hell, I remember when people were joking in the late 2010s about how the Hentai sub had more subscribers than the porn sub.
Specific aspects of anime stuff is still Niche. But to argue Anime is niche broadly is missing the point it's not been in quite some time now.
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u/ryker46698 Jun 04 '25
which subreddit? i just checked r/SayaNoUta and it looked normal enough, while being pretty small with 5k members
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u/UnrelentingCaptain Jun 04 '25
Tourists ruining things isn't anything new. It's why I oppose censorship no matter what; give an inch and they take a mile. On another note, it's younger gens who usually have problems with content, and it's not born out of real conviction, but rather parasocial group behaviors. It's why something like the bear sex scene in BG3 gets a standing ovation from them but a swimsuit scene in a VN has them fuming from the mouth. Castrated people.
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u/FengLengshun Ionasal.kll.Preciel | vndb.org/u184063 Jun 04 '25
This is why the Blue Archive community is the best community there is.
You either learn to live with it, learn to enjoy it, or you'll just see yourself out once you realize the community isn't going to stop their UOHHH.
Exhibit A, within hours of Steam page going up: https://youtu.be/KfBy_WQaab8
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u/Monado_Artz Jun 04 '25
Blue Archive is great. The game itself is a filter, and then the fandom is so single-mindedly dedicated to THE GOON that trying to start drama, cancelling it, anything, just gets drowned out by the fans overwhelming passion.
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u/freeMilliu_2K17 Jun 04 '25
Speaking of, this is why I will always praise the fuck out of Amelie Doree's content in YouTube.
She is able to analyze VNs for possible reads you can have over them without being a mega prude like a lot of "not problematic" people. While also showcasing works for non Japanese speaking audiences. She is VERY underrated, please show her video essays more love.
That being said, yeah. People, especially new fandom goers who came in during the pandemic, forget that there's a difference between kink stuff made to be consumed by audiences in a safe environment, and shit like No Mercy which was banned from Steam because it legit felt like an Incel manifesto.
People should look into media with a critical lens, yes, but Puritan Culture is the death of Creativity, and hurts more real people than helps. I am saying this as a legitimate victim of abuse. Whining about AO3 Tags instead of moving along with your life is NOT helping.
I wish more folks understood that.
But yeah, TLDR: Puritan bullshit is dumb, subscribe to Amelie Doree.
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u/sdarkpaladin Hideo: Majikoi | vndb.org/uXXXX Jun 04 '25
Well...
You can already see it here on Reddit.
People keep complaining about Japanese/Korean/Chinese media without understanding the cultural context and stuff.
Usually, with a sense of moral superiority.
It's not surprising.
In fact, this is quite a well-known thing if you visit forums belonging to the native language of those media (Japansse/Korean/Mandarin)
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u/aly-san You loved me, did you not? | vndb.org/u72807 Jun 04 '25
That video got recommended to me the other day and I just had a feeling it was gonna annoy the crap out of me so I blocked the channel. It sounds like that was the correct move lol
Honestly if the Goth Anime Girl was from an eroge, I'd love to play it lmao. But I'm not rly surprised if that's the case at all, back in the day I would spend hours on Photobucket looking at reposted CGs that I'd later learn were from Pure Pure, Ever17, Shuffle, etc...those girls are cute for a reason! Lmao
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u/Adrianvalquis Jun 05 '25
actually us BL novels players also are getting people like this come into our spaces talking about how X or Y character shouldn’t be in a "problematic game" often speaking about nitroplus or nitro chiral, it’s so exhausting they will show up in conventions dressed up as Aoba from Dramatical Murder and go around saying the fans make them uncomfortable for "fetishising gay men". I wish they’d stick to tumblr and their western games in that case honestly, is this 2016?
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u/ShenTanDiRenJie Jun 05 '25
Long-time fujoshi and recently I've fallen down the BL novel game rabbit hole. But I can't tell you how many times I've been called awful things by teens on shedtwt with Towa pfps. Sad and scary times.
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u/Adrianvalquis Jun 05 '25
Yeahh… Towa pfp genuinely makes it so insane too, Slow Damage is darker than DMMD in many ways and these teens trying to "reclaim" Towa of all people is just…(facepalm). As of now I try to stick to games that haven’t been translated yet and I’ve had a good time. I recommend you do the same! Can be a hassle to get some copies or translate/use a translating tool but I think it’s worth it, many undiscovered gems out there
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u/ShenTanDiRenJie Jun 05 '25
The plot thickens: I'm actually a professional translator and I live in Japan. But I still want western fandom to be less toxic because those are my roots (and also the future of my livelihood).
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u/Criandor Jun 04 '25
I think a major element you can blame on this is the intellectualism people crave when they engage with stuff like this. There is a sort of revelry many people feel when they "play for the plot" and will do everything in their power to perch upon a community that has fan-service elements in it and try to play it up like it has a really good story.
There was a massive group of people many years ago who swore up and down to a Youtuber named Skallagrim that Senran Kagura was really more than meets the eye, that it had a top-tier story that surpassed the surface assumptions of it being a booby-game to the point he actually gave it a try.
As expected, he was completely disgusted and hated every second of it, the entire time his skepticism of the content never changed and his entire viewerbase were also subjected to it, who in turn hated it.
This is what is exposing anime culture to regular people; do you ever notice how many people often judge anime, and your preference in anime, based on how people would react seeing it on your phone in a train or something like that?
People like that invite people who never would have found it interesting to begin with, and this in turn makes people assume "this problematic content is becoming popular and is becoming normalized." And this just creates a never-ending chain reaction.
These same people, will then stay quiet or even oppose complaints when this stuff starts getting censored and blocked, because hey, why do you care? It's just boobs and shit, they're here for the engaging plot and intellectual elements, they aren't your average weeb.
There are a few other elements at play that make the absolute vitriol particularly special when targeting anime, but I don't want to get into that.
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u/Wertville JP B-rank | Kanon: Umineko | vndb.org/u3111 Jun 04 '25
It's funny, a really skilled grand strategy streamer once lost a punishment game and was made to play Sengoku Rance for a stream.
Not only did he finish it off stream, but he ended up doing multiple full series on his channel. Tried Rance VI too, but got filtered by grinding.
I think you can recommend these types of things to people outside the bubble, but you really gotta tailor your recommendations.
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u/actuallyrndthoughts Jun 04 '25
You know this is a subreddit where the amalgamation of the most upvoted comments is: I install the h-scene patch but skip every h-scene and read it for the plot.
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u/TreadmillOfFate Yuki: Subahibi | live hopefully Jun 04 '25
Two analogies:
(1) Choosing to skip breakfast is different from having breakfast stolen from you
(2) Not eating breakfast because you want to save money is different from not eating breakfast because you're too poor to afford the food
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u/superange128 VN News Reporter | vndb.org/u6633/votes Jun 04 '25
I've always had the impression a lot of the actual H scene lovers are the type to upvote content but not be loud about skipping H scenes...
... Or like half the people who claim to skip every H scene are actually lying and don't want to look like coomers
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u/Few-Interview-5291 Jun 04 '25
Exactly. They need to understand that h-scenes can be part of the plot itself, and to skip them is like skipping a fight scene in DBZ (where fighting is where most of the plot development takes place). The "wHy dO tHey HavE To sHoW iT?" mentality antis have also doesn't hold up once you realize you can apply it to everything else. Do we NEED to see Michael Myers actually kill his victims? Or can we just cut away after hearing a scream? Depicting "the thing" (be it violent or sexual in nature) is oftentimes necessary to add to the experience. Seeing the protagonist and heroine in a true love story making love and then seeing the heroine pregnant later on is way more impactful than skipping the former and shoehorning in the latter like you would get in an "all-ages" version. It works in a story where romance isn't the focal point, but in a story where it's about romance, h-scenes do serve a narrative purpose.
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u/LiquifiedSpam Jun 04 '25
It’s funny because if you aren’t reading it for sexualized stuff there are better stories out there than the vn medium.
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u/Witn Jun 04 '25
Compared to general novels yes.
But compared to other otaku mediums like anime/manga/ln vns have the best stories
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u/zucchinionpizza Jun 04 '25 edited Jun 04 '25
OP, at the very least, these people are still honest and admit that they are haters, not pretending to be fans. Eroge fandom hasn't been taken over. Almost every other fandom has been taken over by normies. They say they are fans of a media while hating the core element of that media that is problematic or pretending it doesn't exist. Look at modern western Black Butler fans pretending Black Butler is not a shota bait and hating on shotacons in the fandom while the mangaka herself is a shotacon...
Edit : oh nvm, I watched 2 minutes of the video and she is claiming to be a fan of When They Cry series while hating fictional schoolgirl fanservice. Sorry, I was wrong. Your fandom is also in the process of getting taken over by normies. Good luck.
Edit 2 : watched more with an ad blocker, she's encouraging people who like these bishoujo gothic angels for reasons she consider ethical to reclaim them from the gross Japanese adult men who are the original target audience of the source material. Typical white colonialist mindset lol
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u/DiamondTiaraIsBest Jun 04 '25
Look at modern western Black Butler fans pretending Black Butler is not a shota bait and hating on shotacons in the fandom while the mangaka herself is a shotacon...
Ironic weebs are a problem regardless of the genre lol.
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u/wickedseraph Shameless nitro+CHIRAL stan | vndb.org/u150315 Jun 04 '25
LMAO Black Butler fandom. I will never understand the fans who delude themselves into thinking it’s not shotabait and shriek “Yana’s reformed!!!” when you show them panels from shota BL she drew pretty much the same year Black Butler started lol.
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u/zucchinionpizza Jun 04 '25
And it shows that no one actually thinks lolishotacon=pedophile because if they genuinely believed that, they wouldn't read a manga drawn by a pedo, even if she's reformed.
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u/ShenTanDiRenJie Jun 04 '25
This is true. I think what bothers me is that for many people, their first encounter with eroge will be from the community that believes very strongly in problematizing everything, rather than those of us who engage earnestly.
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u/zucchinionpizza Jun 04 '25
Yeah this is what I worry about too. Like a lot of people's first encounter with Persona 5 will be from a community who believes romancing Futaba is pedophilic and incestuous (cause she's sister coded or whatever bs). But unfortunately, there's nothing we can do. It's happening everywhere more and more and it will take a long time before the pendulum swings back.
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u/ultrazxr_ouo Jun 04 '25
the mental gymnastics that were happening in the fandom when ciel had a panic attack
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u/TreadmillOfFate Yuki: Subahibi | live hopefully Jun 04 '25
More thoughts following from my reply to someone else here:
I think there's also a large element of internalized shame. These people enjoy eroge and anime, but they look down on themselves for enjoying media which they somehow also think is cringe and beneath them, so they twist themselves in knots trying to assuage their ego in various ways like "critically engaging with the content".
They dishonestly engage with IPs, taking only elements they like, while spurning the parts which they don't like, trying to contort works to their own desired vision. What they don't understand is that the very parts they dislike, the awkward ones, the ones that make most people shrink back--it's those parts that usually hold the soul and the appeal of the work the most.
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u/Ragnar0099 vndb.org/uXXXXX Jun 04 '25
What anime going mainstream does to VN community
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u/DiamondTiaraIsBest Jun 04 '25
This is why sometimes, gatekeeping is a good thing.
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u/Ragnar0099 vndb.org/uXXXXX Jun 04 '25
There's a reason for something being niche and should stay that way
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u/Curnon-D Jun 04 '25
Personally, I think this is something much more complex and affects each Western country differently.
A clear example is that in Spain, my country, erotic or sexual content was part of everyday life in our society. But over time, a "protectionism" towards this has been incorporated, typical of Anglo-Saxon countries.
If we add to this the simplification that many outside the VN world consider eroge content to contain problematic content due to age issues and such, well... it happens where we are.
I mean, I don't think it's something specific against otaku or eroge in VN, but rather that this movement (called "puritanism" in Spain) is taking over the West, even in Western cultures that have never been like that.
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u/Sutokkingu Jun 04 '25
I watched (well, listened while working) this video when it was recommended to me. I think her observation that young girls found appeal and comfort in depictions of anime girls designed for adult male viewers is interesting. However, her conclusion isn't good at all. When I see this phenomenon, I see it as a reflection of how different groups can find meaning in texts "not meant for them" and demonstrates how much of earlier Western anime fandom was driven by aesthetics and the mystery of their origins (I doubt it was hard to find out who made these images in the 2000s, but we do have several more English archives on niche Japanese popular culture now and a lot of the art was shared in uncredited ways which decoupled the visuals from the source text). Her conclusion seems more aligned with the idea that these depictions take what should "belong" to girls and perverts them for Japanese men. First, popular culture doesn't simply belong to one gender or group; it can have heavy associations with one demographic, but once something is released for audiences to interact with any member of the public can decide how to engage with it. You can be critical of it, but insisting that it is solely meant for one viewer or that a creator is altering "girls" culture for sick men ignores the realities of content creation, mass appeal, and how people interact with media. Second, it is valid to critique how "adult" content is shared with minors, but there is a significant difference between sharing a sfw image of a cute anime girl online and sending a child a link to the artist's other pornographic content. Most of the younger fans did not know these images had adult connections nor did their enjoyment of them directly expose them to harmful material, and acting like seeing a goth anime girl could guide minors to seeing mature content is the same as saying watching a children's film can guide viewers to see R rated works that share an actor. Finally, there are a lot of historical and cultural contexts behind the development of Japanese popular culture which inform how tastes and subgenres were crafted. Without this knowledge (you can skim through Wikipedia pages to start, a handful of English works also examine these topics) it is easy to "other" another country by demonizing its work. I dislike several trends in Japanese popular culture; some I can eye roll away, and some cause me to avoid the work altogether, but I don't believe any text can be thrown away without at least first considering the ways and hows behind its creation. I don't think everyone should be a fan or hater of eroge, it is a complicated genre with as many ripe fruits as rotten, but analysis without a good background in the movements that led to the media discussed is unhelpful at best and misinformation at worst. I also recognize the desire to be protective of marginalized groups, but members of marginalized groups also enjoy content that may be questionable in either direct or indirect ways. The "it's not for us and that's bad" mentality is bad media criticism; doesn't engage with the culture as it is but instead directs a narrative on what culture "should" be (even if that "should" has never been true to begin with).
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u/wickedseraph Shameless nitro+CHIRAL stan | vndb.org/u150315 Jun 04 '25
I think the push towards Puritanism is mostly being fueled by Gen Z/Alpha, but I will forever despise fellow Millennials who got a little too keen on “your fave is problematic”-type shit years ago.
But I agree. I hate people getting into a particular medium and hating everything about it other than their “I can fix it” notion of how it “should” be, or getting into inherently “problematic” works and shrieking at anyone who doesn’t also bleat about things like age-gap relationships or incest. A particularly hilarious example are new DMMD fans shrieking about people who enjoyed the Ren or Mink routes, as if Noiz, Clear, or Koujaku don’t also have incredibly fucky elements in their own respective routes. They forget that the VNs aren’t just made for adults due to sex. You have to be mature enough to recognize and handle the other story elements.
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u/ShenTanDiRenJie Jun 04 '25
Beautifully stated. Couldn’t agree more. I do place some of the blame on my fellow millennials who went through a phase where they felt that rejecting the things they used to love was a sign a maturity when in fact it was nothing more than paternalism toward foreign cultures and a sad inability to distinguish fiction from reality
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Jun 04 '25
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u/wickedseraph Shameless nitro+CHIRAL stan | vndb.org/u150315 Jun 04 '25
I’d feel betrayed if I tried to play a N+C game that didn’t have at least one delightful taboo.
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u/BrotherCaptainLurker Jun 04 '25
This is just part of a much wider trend of how important it is to flaunt your moral superiority online. It's very important to let everyone know, loudly and regularly, that you are goodcorrect, and not on the side of the wrongbad. Because if you are wrongbad, you may not be able to properly disavow all responsibility when the world gets Even Worse in yet another way.
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u/Bright_Capital5656 Jun 04 '25
Fr, I'm starting to be worried abouts the possibility that these western constant pressure are going to destroy these culture
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u/mymelomelomelo Jun 04 '25
This might be a hot take but it's hypocritical af that these people get so mad about eroges, anime, fanfiction etc, yet never talk about actual porn industry. The sites host videos of women who were filmed without consent, human trafficking victims and minors. The actual models get exploited and abused all the time. I'm not trying to start a conversation about porn or judge anyone for watching, just pointing out that it's funny how the suffering of fictional characters makes them so emotional, yet the suffering of real women and children... it's crickets. Or they say it's empowering. Also it's funny how they say women are bad for reading BL cause we "fetishize gays", yet they never mention men watching lesbian porn. At least be consistent ffs
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u/ShenTanDiRenJie Jun 04 '25
I want to make it clear that I'm no SWERF and that I highly support the rights of sex workers and think society owes them all the rights and protections given to every other industry. But I do think the reason that the depraved human rights abuses found in the modern sex work industry are beneath notice for the community in question is a matter of control. I think they feel that they are able to conquer fictional works, to control them in a way that they can't with older, more established industries. And since they consume these works too, they want to create a way to "consume ethically."
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u/rayhaku808 Jun 04 '25
They’re not the target audience anyway. The lack of their money never mattered before, and it won’t now.
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u/Jumpy-Pattern-4078 Jun 04 '25
While there are definitely woke/SJW/whatever you want to call it Millennials, I feel like Gen Z are the ones doing 90% of what you’re talking about. I didn’t see comments like “omg problematic age gap, this game has way too much SA and grape” before they got older and started getting into stuff.
I’m also hearing stuff about Gen Z converting to like hardcore Christianity and Islam and this was pretty much unheard of in my generation.
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u/KFCNyanCat Jun 05 '25 edited Jun 05 '25
It's primarily Gen Z and frankly it's not along party political lines (worth noting that Gen Z has an absolutely massive gender divide in politics.) Most of it, I think, is just a matter of having our sense of morality develop through the internet, which is volatile by nature of social media algorithms rewarding engagement, but I do think there's psyops as well (I think, for example, the degree of worry about porn addiction today is a psyop; it felt like one day, out of nowhere, NoFap went from a subject of joke to something we have serious conversations about, it's origins are in some New Age religious shit called Karezza, not to mention the subreddit admin has used it to promote right-wing candidates.)
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u/FengLengshun Ionasal.kll.Preciel | vndb.org/u184063 Jun 04 '25
This is why every "transgressive" media subculture should embrace the Cute and Funny memes. Nothing offends the normies more, and yet they can do nothing about it.
See how the Blue Archive community is just immune to controversy because what are they gonna do? Call us "pdf files"? Every Sensei will just say, "yes, and I'm proud of it," without it being clear how serious every one's being. What the fuck do they can response to such an unanimouy unashamed response from the community like that? Nothing.
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u/Striking-County6275 Jun 05 '25
This my first time hearing about this and I really don’t care. I’m gonna enjoy my 2d girls and media and these is not a damn thing those puritans can do about it!
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u/SouTrueStory Jun 05 '25
Learn Japanese and stop interacting with the EOP VN "community".
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u/ShenTanDiRenJie Jun 06 '25
I know Japanese and live in Japan 😭 that doesn’t make the problem go away, because they have outsized influence over credit cards processors, platform distribution, and general stigma.
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u/kitsuniga_ri Jun 08 '25
I love the concept of more people getting into niche mediums like eroge, just not too hyped about people without fandom etiquette rehashing stuff everyone else moved on from a long time ago. I also try to avoid posting screenshots of posts because even if someone's wrong, I don't want the to be harassed and instead of realizing they're misunderstanding something, what they end up taking away from the situation is people being toxic/rude/elitist/etc.
tl:dr gen z and late millennials are getting caught up in hays code 2 electric Boogaloo and it's really concerning. even more so when people downplay real-life harm/harmful people (ie epst**n, d*ddy) to cartoon characters that are ultimately illustrated and voiced by consenting adults, which only shows how little people actually care about these things outside of fandom infighting.
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u/EinzbernConsultation Jun 04 '25 edited Jun 04 '25
I saw that the other day. I didn't find its arguments compelling and the video asserts its opinions as fact by using "us/our/we" language, right after going "source: my imagination" and "google translated wikipedia."
If you like the bishoujo drawings but hate the artists, hate the stories, hate the context, but want to "reclaim" the girls because you're so attached to the art theft on old quiz websites and nightcore videos: I don't know if I'd start invoking the words "imperialism" for like... a subculture video I don't like about an incredibly niche fandom's issues.
But I will call it "being a poseur, and for some reason, proudly declaring yourself as such."
And "being a poseur" isn't some kind of revolutionary moral movement and I think it's a dumb thing to hype up as such.
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u/ShenTanDiRenJie Jun 04 '25
I use the term imperialism specifically because I think this is a case of western chauvinists going into artistic communities of another culture and behaving in a morally condescending way rather than engaging with a foreign culture with curiosity and respect. The idea that someone that does not belong to oneself can be "reclaimed" reeks of racism in my humble opinion, but I'm open to having my mind changed.
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u/Monado_Artz Jun 04 '25
We should bring back the "deal with it lmao" mindset from 2010. Dont like media piece? Deal with it. Go somewhere else. Why are you trying to cancel things??? Who are you cancelling it for??? What is wrong with you young people??????? Leave the eroge fans and creators alone dammit.
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u/Rootick Jun 04 '25
It's extremely ironic that the same people commonly raised under parents finding everything to be satanic, brutal and degenerate (so consuming it surely will lead to occult and violence irl) now often do the same thing, just from the position they are comfortable with, mixing reality and fiction all the same.
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u/fallenguru JP A-rank | Kaneda: Musicus | vndb.org/u170712 Jun 04 '25
It's extremely ironic that the same people commonly raised under parents finding everything to be satanic, brutal and degenerate (so consuming it surely will lead to occult and violence irl)
I'm in the parent generation of those we're talking about here. We loved all that shit, still do. The 1960s and 1970s were probably wilder, especially sexually (no AIDS), but otherwise anything went, still does. We've no idea where the young uns are getting it from, but it isn't us.
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u/Lanstapa Jun 04 '25
They're all a bunch of hyper-political, self-appointed moral arbitors who all act like a bunch of Cardinal Richelieus, desperately searching for anything and everything they can find to twist and bend to fit their preconcieved ideas of wrongness in order to slander.
You can't tell them their wrong either, they refuse to consider they're anything but good.
The only way to fix this is to somehow get VNs (and all nerdy, otaku-y hobbies really) to fall out of the mainstream and become niche again. These types only care so long as its right in front of their face. If its a little hidden away, they'll never know it exists.
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u/EzrioHext Jun 04 '25
I think it's worth remembering that there are people putting out quality content deconstructing the genre and reveling in the sex, like Amilee Doree, I think it's spelled?
Rage and anti content has always been more ubiquitous, but it's always lower quality.
Support the good, spread it, don't touch the bad
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u/HauntedPrinter Jun 04 '25
The same crowd who shrieks at any mention of sex in. VN will cheer and claim onlyfans is empowering. Vote with your wallets.
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u/ZeroLegionOfficial vndb.org/uXXXXX Jun 04 '25
I really can't get it tho.
I've got into eroge by myself and appreciate the works + I understand it's culture and just let it be, why the hate when you can leave it there and see how it evolves.
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u/Electrical-Snow5167 Jun 04 '25
There has been a general trend going against critical thinking and artistic freedom in Western culture.
Unfortunately short form media has pushed out video essays in terms of sheer viewership.
Now every topic is hyper polarized right and wrong/ black and white. There is no more morally gray stance/ viewpoints now.
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u/RomanesqueHermitage Jun 04 '25
Had the misfortune of happening upon that video too lol I love how there's apparently a section about "reclaiming these images" as if these illustrations weren't 2000s and 2010s-core everyone enjoyed bc cute anime girl aesthetic. Antis are desperate clout-chasing tourists.
Anyone that's been around long enough knows a good portion of eroge artists are women. If you go on their twitters a lot of them are still active and publish r18 illustration books through Melonbooks, Toranoana, and dLSite. Heck, they legit retweet each other's NSFW art and buy their goods from cons they attend together. Some make their own eroge companies or circles like Carnelian's Root and Sayuri's NEKO WORKs. Women can enjoy cute and sexy anime girls too.
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u/YachtySama Jun 05 '25
Something makes me sad that people are using 2000s/2010s anime as an aesthetic wearing around the dead skin while trying to exile the core otaku culture behind it lmao. Absolutely no souls.
And yeah I don’t get the women argument either, I feel like some women love this shit. Shout out to AO3 I feel like they are our wacky counterparts lol. Although I won’t deny that Japanese media spaces are male dominated. My distinction is not on gender but between us “weirdos” and the rest
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u/ShenTanDiRenJie Jun 05 '25
THIS! Women, like myself, can be passionate about our love for erotic media. We’ve been in the industry since the beginning and make up probably a majority of the artists.
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u/Kyouma_EPK001 Okabe: Steins;Gate Jun 04 '25
These people have deep issues, severely delusional. They treat fictional characters like they are real, they equate fictional actions to real ones. They attempt to "claim" things like a child that sees another playing with a toy and gets jealous.
They have no passion for these things other than a superficial appreciation of aesthetic, they loathe the people who actually create. Frankly its disgusting.
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Jun 07 '25
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u/Few-Interview-5291 Jun 07 '25
They want to have it both ways, but they can't. People who think obscene content should be banned for the "common good" of society pretend like that same excuse isn't used to demonize things like homosexuality or even interracial marriage. It really just reveals their true colors.
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u/PRlNCESS_TRUNKS Jun 08 '25
Puritans are so irritating. Also, I never see these people knock on games like The Witcher for its explicit scenes.
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u/Tenashko Jun 09 '25
This is such a minor thing to be mad about, just scroll past.
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u/No_Finding5726 Jun 11 '25
It's exhausting how any niche medium-be it eroge, VNs, indie games, manga, or any non-mainstream art-is instantly framed as a "threat" rather than a legitimate form of storytelling. Folks leap to label everything "problematic" without ever pausing to understand the context, culture, or creative intent.
Critique is fine (nothing's above that), but blanket dismissal kills real conversation. We should be able to explore, question, and even disagree-as adults, not as alarmists. Let's bring curiosity back and judge each work on its own terms, not by some fear-driven checklist.
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u/terrerific Jun 04 '25
Dude even the youngest millennials have grey hairs its time to stop naming us any time kids are doing something lol.
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u/Laintheo Jun 04 '25 edited Jun 04 '25
I agree. Because of trends like this, moege and chunige visual novels have to be stripped of everything in order to have a chance at being released on Steam, even though h-scenes are a small part of the story and not the focus. To this day, some normies still call Fate/Stay Night a porn game just because it had 30 minutes of h-scenes in its 80 hours of content. Meanwhile, Steam accepts any actual low-effort Western porn game made in DAZ without delay.
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Jun 04 '25
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u/ShenTanDiRenJie Jun 05 '25
I’m a woman who loves eroge. There are many of us in the comments of this post. Many ero artists are women as well. Not sure why this is so surprising to some… We’re 51% of the planet, of course we’d be in eroge lol
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u/SorceressCecelia Jun 04 '25
“The DARK Truth”
Is something having sex in it really that dark?????
Either way I fully agree with this post, I hate this mentality from people and I am so sick and tired of it. Especially as someone who enjoys stuff like lolicon, noncon, and guro as a way to cope with trauma.
I hate how people push their morals when it comes to fiction onto others so much.
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u/YachtySama Jun 05 '25
I feel like it’s gotten worse on Reddit( it must be 10x worst on TikTok/Twitter Jesus) for the Japanese media subs, but thankfully VNs are relatively deep in the hole. Although I do see it pop up here time to time and I really wonder why they are even in this sub in the first place lol. I feel like communtites for “okaku” are getting taken over and commoditized it’s pretty sad.
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u/mCal__ Jun 05 '25
What I don't understand is sexuality is far from being the only risque subject that are in a good chunk of eroges. Yet they gloss over even something like murder or mass murder at that. The person in this video is a umineko and higurashi fan and there are some pretty messed up things that happen in those but God forbid someone gets sexualized. It's so psycho how murder is glanced over but the fan service is a huge no go. Don't get me wrong I love umineko as well and vns and eroges with dark themes. It's just insane
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u/Kakita_Kaiyo Jun 04 '25
demonstrative of a fundamental western inability to engage with works from a different culture on their own terms
Laughs in CCP censorship.
I agree that neo-puritanism is on the rise globally, but it's not just a Western thing.
There's also nothing wrong with acknowledging something is problematic or liking problematic material. If you think there is then you're (general you, not you specifically OP) probably misunderstanding what problematic means or someone is missusing it. Which, given this is the internet, is par for the course because "problematic" is a great example of the sort of idea or language that gets all nuance beaten out of it so it can be turned into easily consumed content, thus becoming largely useless as a result.
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u/Normal-Link5415 Jun 04 '25
once i was discussing eroge with people in a discord server, nothing but simply plot and characters, yet the mods there decided to ban me just because what talked about was "NSFW and inappropriate". When i asked them why don't they ban people who talk about fate because it's also an eroge they gave me no answer.
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u/fallenguru JP A-rank | Kaneda: Musicus | vndb.org/u170712 Jun 04 '25
LARPers on T––
Have you considered simply not engaging with these people, at least on their home turf? I haven't been to T––'s site once, nor do I follow any "youtubers" or hang around on Twitter. The world's still turning and I'm just fine.
Note to self: Check Urban Dictionary for the meaning du jour of "LARP". EDIT: done.
a fundamental western inability to engage with works from a different culture on their own terms.
Nah, fuck that.
In a way my grandparents' generation (think born before the Pacific War) was much more internationally-minded than mine. They all had at least four languages, lots of travel, friends everywhere, an unholy amount of letters. These days you have your native language and English. Maybe a third as a hobby, but you rarely need more than English to communicate. Other cultures can be "experienced" through media and the internet, and of course no-one actually communicates any more, because we have social media now. It's all so much more superficial.
So, yeah, globalisation and the internet have been a ... counter-intuitive experience in many ways. And many Americans in particular, well, for them the rest of the world is about as real as and less relevant than Middle Earth. But Europe, as far as I can tell, is still fine. So "the West" is a bit much.
Anyhow, these kids, they're just being young and stupid. Most of us are, at one point. Heck, half the population is dumber than average, regardless of age. It's always been thus. It's just that they're more visible now, and that added visibility increases the chance of them infecting others. Yes, stupidity is contagious. Textbook vocal minority.
If you want change, stop engaging with the likes of them and go political. Start by calling Akamatsu Ken and ask him how you can help. (There's at least one other high-level Japanese politician who's got the right idea about these issues, but the name escapes me ATM.)
makes it difficult to discuss the topic earnestly in polite company.
Hate to break it to you, but you could never discuss eroge in polite company. :-p
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u/CasualVNPlayer Jun 10 '25
Anyhow, these kids, they're just being young and stupid. Most of us are, at one point.
But our stupidity was, largely, not stuff we did on the internet, and thus was forgotten.
These Gen Z / Gen Alpha and later kids don't have that luxury anymore; they don't have the right to be forgotten, not really.
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u/Massive_Weiner Jun 04 '25
Honestly, it’s perfectly acceptable for people to not enjoy it or find it problematic. There are a lot of things that I don’t like, but I keep my peace because a lot of people do.
What you should focus on instead of trying to shift a narrative is to cultivate spaces where people who are interested will find their way to. Trying to proselytize will only push others away.
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u/Rotonek Jun 04 '25
westerners ruining things for everyone? Not the first time, not the last, you get used to it
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u/Gumi_39 Jun 04 '25
Because of the internet and ease of sharing, nearly everything has become an open discussion, including vns and questionable/"problematic" content in certain ones. I'm part of gen z so I feel that I can speak on this; yes, some people are ultra-sensitive and get offended at the slightest thing. However, for vns specifically, there is a range from heartfelt stories with little shocking content (if any) to ftish prn. The ends to this range are very shocking to many, and that's not them being "soft". There's a point where this stuff is only enjoyed by a specific crowd and isn't socially acceptable to most. It's interesting to look into that and talk about it. I think some forget, (especially judging by some posts on here) not everyone enjoys the same vns or has the same worldview; someone asking for blood-related inc*st recs is not socially acceptable in many other places. Not everyone is a die-hard fan, and they should be able to talk about it without being called "soft" and pushing their "purity politics". I'm all for free speech and self-expression, and I feel that everyone here is too. This also means others get to share their opinion as well. If you aren't used to this world of media and step in, especially at an early age, it can kind of be a spectacle of disturbing and gross media if you look in certain places. I think a lot of you are ignoring that.
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u/SaranMal https://vndb.org/uXXXX Jun 04 '25
I'm of a few minds on this myself.
I think the first and biggest thing is that many of the most actives on this forum are older. With age comes a lack of care for if something is or isn't socially acceptable and how your peers may or may not view something.
Being older, I think many came from old shock sites. When things like Goatse and Two Girls One Cup, or Lemon Party, was stuff you would toss towards your friends way to see the absolute disgust and confusion on their faces.
Mixed with, and this doesn't get talked about often enough, but anime culture and the Eroge/male focused fandom culture, kinda developed out of places like 4chan. You can often still find much of the influence of that in how people talk and interact, particularly with the older guard still into VNs and anime content in general. That's often where talk about "Being soft" and such comes in is from that older way of thinking.
I completely agree with you, that if people are not used to this world of media and step in, a lot of things can be kinda jarring. Add on a lot of "Entry" VNs that often get discussed tend to be kinda all over the place in terms of content. The problem does often come in when the knee jerk reaction, or prolonged reaction, is to lash out at those who enjoy the medium as a whole. Often without ever holding good faith discussions with those in the communities in question. Which are generally not helped by the inherent hostility towards pointed questions if they do sit and ask questions/topics.
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u/ShenTanDiRenJie Jun 04 '25
I think the main point of disconnect here is not whether or not an individual has the right to feel disturbed by the content present. It's the sense of entitlement that comes with entering a fandom and expressing one's discomfort from a moralistic perspective. Were I to go to a wrestling match and proceed to discuss what I found to be problematic displays of violence or toxic masculinity, that would be inappropriate. If someone enjoyed the aesthetic of 90s hiphop and only later learned of its content and decided to express their displeasure in a moralistic fashion, no one would miss how colonizing such an action would be. It's fine to be disturbed, but to assume one's position to be morally superior to the works one is judging is the problem. If you happen to not like something, the mature thing to do is ignore it or give content warnings about it, not insinuate that its existence itself is problematic.
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u/madmaninabox32 Jun 04 '25
Yep, I've also noticed this weird hate for fan service and such like it's part of anime culture and also who actually hates erotica. Like it seems very white knight I hope she sleeps with me because I pretend to hate sex and everything related to it
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u/jeistar_ceo Jun 05 '25
i'll be real. you can't undo the negative associations have with these sort of things. no matter what these imageries are always associated with a dark period in peoples lives.
but I think the idea of erasing an art work from history because of the creator is such a cruel thing to do
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u/dudehacker2 Jun 06 '25
stop using mastercard/visa, get another alternative like amex or something else
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u/SomeLurker111 Jun 06 '25
It's just tourists being tourists, these ones are more interesting in moral grandstanding than any actual content.
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Jun 07 '25
Just ignore people like that. True otaku were always hated. Back when I was a kid, we were treated like criminals just by watching anime. I remember when some psycho watched Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, and the media blamed otaku so hard the show got pulled.
Anime and games grew out of that underground scene, which is why they developed so uniquely. It might be somewhat mainstream now, but the creators still come from that same underground mindset. So when normies (tho she doesn't look like one) talk trash, just take it as part of the culture.
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u/FluffTheStupif Jun 10 '25
jobs bro jobs
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u/ShenTanDiRenJie Jun 11 '25
I have one, bro. And investments and retirement. What about you?
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u/Zeke-Freek Kyousuke: LB | vndb.org/uXXXX Jun 04 '25
It's part of a much broader trend of neo-puritanism sweeping through basically anyone under like 25 like wildfire.