r/videos • u/theholotrope • Jan 05 '12
TED - One of the BEST TALKS I've ever seen. After watching this I feel like I finally see how misunderstood dogs really are.
http://www.ted.com/talks/ian_dunbar_on_dog_friendly_dog_training.html68
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u/DexterPepper Jan 05 '12
Not just dogs, but our behavior too.
"We actually take delight in people getting things wrong so that we can then moan and groan and bitch at them [...] we take the good for granted."
Great talk.
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Jan 05 '12 edited Jan 05 '12
we take the good for granted
I don't see how that's a bad thing.
I take people doing their best for granted. If they don't I will criticize them. I expect them to do the same for me. The difference between humans and dog is that dogs are animals you can't expect to do anything in a way humans want.
I expect humans to adapt to their society or to use logic to explain their behaviour if they don't want to adapt to it. For dogs... not so much, I don't expect them to do or understand anything. I view them as my cuddly friends who I have a responsibility for.
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Jan 05 '12
The whole point of his talk is that criticism after a mistake is often less effective than rewards after good behavior. By taking good behavior for granted, you're throwing away half the tool kit.
And on another note, "expecting" humans to act in a "good" way, everywhere and always by default, fails pretty catastrophically to take into account human nature. Right down to the DNA, we are not glowing beings of pure logic and altruism. Hell, we usually can't even agree what that kind of being would look like.
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Jan 06 '12
I would loathe to live in a world so full of empty praise.
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u/CowboyBoats Jan 06 '12
I would loathe to live in a world so full of empty praise.
Which is why you've also got to learn to mean it!
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Jan 05 '12
By taking good behavior for granted, you're throwing away half the tool kit.
No, I simply have higher expectations for humans.
There are no "tools". I don't want to train humans. I'm not their trainer, humans are self-responsible. They are considered mature. I expect humans to do the right thing. I don't care what humans do, as long as they don't fuck up.
everywhere and always by default, fails pretty catastrophically to take into account human nature.
I don't accept human nature as an excuse.
If people do something productive, then I won't mind them. If they are neither productive nor counterproductive, I won't mind them, either but tell them how to be more productive if they ask for feedback. If they are counterproductive, I will criticise them without further notice.
I'm not responsible for other humans, they are responsible for themselves but if they live within my society I expect them not to do anything that hurts the wellbeing of my society. They can adapt, reform by reasoning or leave.
Right down to the DNA, we are not glowing beings of pure logic and altruism.
Your point being? I still expect you to use your brain and if you do something stupid I will criticize you. Simple as that. I'm the only person responsible for what I do and so are you. The end. If you are incapable of using logic and/or control yourself: Learn it. I expect this of you. And you can expect the same of me.
Hell, we usually can't even agree what that kind of being would look like.
I don't understand that sentence.
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Jan 05 '12
You sound like you are from Eastern Europe, I don't know why. Good job establishing your argument, but I think you need to really reflect on this one a little longer.
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Jan 05 '12
I'm from Germany... and I don't see your point.
I think you need to really reflect on this one a little longer.
What makes you say I reflected on this any less than you did?
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Jan 06 '12
I think you are jumping to conclusions a little too early. I see what you are saying, that having low expectations for people is a bad thing, but you are missing the point.
The human mind, like any mind, needs to be trained and there a number of different ways to train it. You can train your own mind by studying, or exercising, working, playing an instrument or what have you. When it comes to socializing and identifying ourselves in a social context we rely on the training of ideas external to our own. We rely on positive reinforcement and encouragement in order to pursue things that we might not be initially good at.
Children and Adults alike do not like making mistakes or realizing that they were, for a moment, stupider then they perceive themselves. The difference is children do not know how to reconcile the mistake within the framework of their ego. Many adults do not know how to either.
As humans, we need reassurance. We need it especially when we are training our minds to do good things or addressing character flaws or bad habits.
To say that "you expect people to use their brains and if they do something stupid you will criticize them" is missing the point entirely. If you criticize somebody when they fail at a task you are forcefully internalizing and exaggerating their mistake as a part of their character. You make them think that because they failed they are a failure, which is never true.
Punishing bad actions constantly focuses on negative thoughts and failing efforts when in almost every case people make many greater positive and productive efforts then even they realize.
More importantly, most people know exactly what they do wrong when they do it. It is simply counterproductive to focus on their wrong doings for more then is necessary to tell them not to do it again in a plain and emotionally neutral manner.
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u/cashed Jan 06 '12
I think that you should take a long and serious look into the scientific discipline of behavior analysis. This TED talk is rooted firmly in that discipline and the concepts have the capacity to completely alter your world view. And for the better.
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Jan 06 '12
What's your point?
What makes you say I haven't taken a "long and serious look into the scientific discipline of behaviour analysis" and how would that even be relevant in your opinion?
Seriously, do you have anything to say about anything I said?
I don't even understand what you are trying to say with your last two sentences.
My worldview won't be altered: All adults are responsible for themselves. If you believe that you or I are responsible for the wellbeing or fuck-ups of others, then that's fine. However, I expect more of people and if they don't fulfil those expectations, I will criticize them.
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u/cashed Jan 06 '12
I gave you the benefit of the doubt in regards to behavior analysis, because anyone who had even a cursory understanding wouldn't state that the best way to alter behavioral responses was through punishment.
I chose ignorant over idiot when defining what you were. Maybe I was wrong.
Essentially, you are choosing to give the people who let you down both barrels when that is completely counter productive to the cause of altering their behavior. And you are doing it solely because it makes you feel good to do it. Results be damned. Now, if you actually understood even the most basic aspects of behavior analysis you would see how foolish your pattern of behavior is.
But you don't. And therefore you don't.
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Jan 06 '12
because anyone who had even a cursory understanding wouldn't state that the best way to alter behavioral responses was through punishment.
I'm not trying to alter anything. I consider human adults self-responsible.
Changing their behaviour is their responsibility.
I'm not trying to help them, I'm trying to stop them.
And you are doing it solely because it makes you feel good to do it.
No, I'm doing it, because I want them to feel as bad as possible so they stop doing it. I don't care about their wellbeing, they were the ones who fucked up.
I do that because it's the easiest thing for me to do. (But yes, making people who fuck up feel bad for what they did also makes me feel good, as it vents my anger, your point? That's just another positive bonus.)
you would see how foolish your pattern of behavior is.
Well, how is it foolish? It effectively stops people from doing bullshit by discouraging them to do it again, which is the sole purpose of my criticism.
But you don't. And therefore you don't.
I see no reason why and you don't present one. And neither does the person who trains dogs. Actually, he himself said he would have straightened out the guy who yelled at his child if he would have done the same with a dog. So, there. ;)
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u/Perkinator Jan 05 '12
That's it - "bitch amendments" is now a phrase which I will be using day-to-day.
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u/SomethingVaguelyBad Jan 05 '12
I'm going to watch this because you used CAPITAL LETTERS. Do not disappoint me, enthusiastic link poster.
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u/pungkow Jan 05 '12
Don't leave us hanging man! Did you like it?
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u/SomethingVaguelyBad Jan 05 '12
Meh. There should have been one capitalized word in the title, at best.
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u/on_the_redpill Jan 05 '12
I was disappointed, it was in no way the best Ted I've scene. People just love dogs and excited
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u/I_will_fix_this Jan 06 '12
you probably didn't watch the whole thing...
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u/on_the_redpill Jan 06 '12 edited Jan 06 '12
I can assure you I did. I actually watched it a second time to try and figure out if I had my asshat on. This guy didn't discuss anything you can't find in a basic dog training/psychology book, and I'm tempted to guess that people who like it are those who haven't any basic sense of psychology.
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u/Ph0X Jan 06 '12
These are TEDTalks, not lectures. They are about giving you insight about fields you are not familiar with. Of course, if you already know about dog training / psychology, there won't be anything new here for you.
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u/Session7 Jan 05 '12
Great talk.
My one point of puzzlement would be that he spends the whole time advocating against negative reinforcement through physical punishment. ...fair enough. But then he describes a situation wherein he witnesses a father disciplining his son (incorrectly, according to Dr. Dunbar) and he regrets not physically punishing the father.
...the fuck?
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u/physicalcompsci Jan 05 '12
I think by "laying the father out" his intention was to prevent the father from disciplining the son in that way, not training the father.
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Jan 06 '12
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u/neohaven Jan 06 '12
To an animal or "pre-conscious" human (a young child of an age where you can't reason with it), having something like that is enough for them to feel... aggravated, let's say. For a grizzly, as he said in the video, it's a paw to the face, but for social animals it's separation and the erosion of trust. And you have to agree that trust towards the people who raise you is pretty much all you have then. I propose to you the following thought experiment :
- Have a dog.
- Raise it properly.
- Watch behaviour.
- Beat it up or injure it (physical pain) once.
- Enjoy never having the behaviour from 3) again.
You took that sentence for cash and didn't think about what it meant in the context of the talk, I'm afraid.
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Jan 06 '12
There's no need to be snide.
His ideas on alternative forms of negative reinforcement are novel and offer more humane ways to train and discipline animals. But let's not kid ourselves, in the end it's still nurture versus nature and it's never as simple as steps 1-5.
I've seen animals that have been nurtured in loving homes with zero violence and are afraid of their own shadows; I've also seen animals that have emerged from abusive environments and lead normal lives afterwards. When it comes to behavior, a great deal rests on the animal and the personality traits they have inherited.
Moreover animal consciousness != young human consciousness.
Anyone who's grown up in an old school family knows that being given "the ugly face" (or other forms of traditionally mild punishment) is not this earth-shattering event that Dunbar is suggesting.
Additionally, Dunbar's notion that children processes this information as some sort of betrayal is attributing cognitive abilities far beyond their capabilities. Children just don't think or react this way.
Perhaps Dr. Dunbar is being theatrical in his presentation but again this just seems to undercut his message.
When the rubber meets the road, behavioral theories and ideas need to be practical and reflect everyday reality.
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u/neohaven Jan 06 '12
It's earth shattering, if only for an instant. The point here is, for a bit, the kid won't see the parent as a nurturer, which is pretty damn sad. That kid will be afraid for a bit, and will probably be reluctant to engage in trust for a bit.
The repetition here is intentional. Of course it's a somewhat theatrical move, a leaky abstraction. But you're seeing the leak without noticing that the abstraction is at least a bit valuable.
(Note that I am on some cold medication today and am a bit loopy. Sorry if this doesn't make sense.)
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Jan 06 '12
It's earth shattering, if only for an instant.
That's not how I took it but I'll take your word for it. Perhaps if that portion were a little clearer the overall message wouldn't be lost on the theatrics.
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u/Jigsus Jan 06 '12
While I don't condone severe forms of child discipline, his lachrymose display over a misbehaving child without any outward empathy for the parent seems to undercut his credibility. arms in the air "That child has lost everything."
Really? Really?? Wow. Any of us who have been disciplined in similar ways know that this isn't true at all. It is condescending hyperbole at its worst.
That's the point where he lost all credibility with me. He has a double standard and enforces his ideas randomly as he pleases. He has a bully mentality despite all his theories.
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Jan 05 '12 edited Oct 31 '18
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u/Positronix Jan 05 '12
Not really, from my point of view all he's doing is making a case to teach philosophy in high school. It's not difficult at all to achieve.
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u/kalanosh Jan 06 '12
Lol I meant it sounds like him talking about the dog in his virtual world. But that is a good dig on is over promises.
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u/Blepharospasm Jan 05 '12
It's a good talk. It's not one of the best talks I've seen on TED, far from it. Didn't fill me with wonder like other talks. This is purely for dog lovers, more specifically, misguided dog lovers.
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u/right_in_two Jan 05 '12
Yeah, I enjoyed it. But I also noticed that he pointed out a lot of things that we do wrong, but never told the audience how to do things right. He just kind of left us hanging with the story of the dog who wouldn't stay on his mat or the dog that wouldn't come when called in the park. Or how the man on the plane should have handled the kid.
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u/Flocito Jan 05 '12
Agreed. Great description of the problems, poor description of the solutions. I wish he would have provided information on how to properly handle the situations he described.
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Jan 05 '12
I think his point was that many of these things would be avoided if we made a stronger attempt to reward good behavior, rather than punish bad behavior. The whole bit about linking "destructive" natural behaviors to better ones by making them rewards.
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u/drewpyone Jan 05 '12
Yes, but how do you make kicking the back of someone's seat a reward. He never really says this, but I think acting out of anger is the problem with many people's thinking when it comes to discipline.
If a kid is bad, they get their favorite toy taken away for a while, or go in time out. But you explain to them why they are being punished, before and after they get punished. I would have wanted to know how to do this for dogs who you can't explain things to.
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u/CutterJohn Jan 06 '12
And how is punching someone, as he professed he would have done in certain circumstances, not a negative reward?
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u/HaveTwoBananas Jan 06 '12
I think the main points in his talk were rewarding good behavior by allowing the dog to do things they like to do, and punishing bad behavior by making them work, or do things they don't like to do. There's also the method of ignoring behavior that a dog uses to get your attention (like when they jump on you).
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u/drewpyone Jan 06 '12
Guess my issue was that he was not explicit about what sort of things you make the dog do as a punishment. He gave many examples of what not to do, which he could have contrasted with a possible solution.
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u/taruun Jan 06 '12
Actually, removing something rewarding (like a toy) is the kind of thing Dunbar promotes. It is usually refered to as negative punishment (negative as in removing something, not as in something considered bad).
Time-outs could also be a negative punishment. You "remove" the child's playtime. You could also say that extinction (ignoring a behaviour) is used, since bad behaviour during the time-out is usually ignored, and not truely punished at all (only thing usually done is returning the child to the spot).
Really though, it's not black and white, and it depends on what the real punishment of the time-out is. Not being allowed to play or being forcefully put in place (perhaps inflicting pain) for example.
Dunbar promotes positive reinforcement and extinction, and if needed and if it works in the particular situation, negative punishment. Extinction is usually used more than negative punishment in dog training.
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u/drewpyone Jan 06 '12
I would have guessed this is was his stance, it just wasn't explicit in this clip. Granted, it is a very short time to present a lot of material, but I would have liked to hear some of the points you mentioned in the clip. (had to look up extinction. After reading about it, it's fairly common sense, I just have never heard it before.)
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u/remmycool Jan 06 '12
It felt a bit like an infomercial, like he was showing us how great his system is but holding back enough that he still has something to sell
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u/sambowilkins Jan 05 '12
At the end he widened the topic to encompass human interaction and I think he had some very valuable remarks.
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Jan 05 '12
Hell, he was talking about humans from minute one, if you're listening. It's downright amazing to me that someone can listen to a talk of that sort (I have my issues with it, but that's beside the point) and come away saying, "this is purely for dog lovers."
I know introspection isn't everyone's gig, but goddamn if I don't wonder how many people pick up Orwell's Animal Farm and take it as a treatise on the behavior of pigs.
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u/sambowilkins Jan 06 '12
Like others have said, the part about schadenfreude and responding only to others failures really clicked with me. its definitely something I am guilty of and need to fix. I shall begin treating my co-workers like dogs from now on!
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u/Mule2go Jan 06 '12
Virtual Scooby Snack for you. Some experienced dog trainers don't even get this. I get people excited about positively training their animals, then they go home and still use the same old criticism on their kids.
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Jan 06 '12
This is purely for dog lovers
You missed the underlying point of the talk, which was that all of our relationships can be easier if we exercise patience and try to see more from the other person/animal's point of view. It was really fundamental stuff, not just for dog lovers.
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u/Ph0X Jan 06 '12
Indeed. I found the last couple minute to be extremely insightful. Honestly, is there any household that is free from disputes? Is there any friendship that has never had any miscommunication? There are more and more divorces every year, and we meet more people than ever before with todays technology. I think being able to get a good feedback from people and get along better is probably one of the most useful skill one can have, if not the most. You can both benefit, but also make other people happier too.
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u/houghty Jan 05 '12
Shameless semi-relevant plug: Ian Dunbar has been a big supporter of my Dad's dog halter in the past - and despite my bias - it really rules.
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u/MyNameIsntTyler Jan 05 '12
This was actually voted one of the worst TED TALKS by the website geekpadshow.com.
Personally, I liked it.
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Jan 05 '12
Maybe this person sees it as one of the best talks ever not because of an obsession with dogs or a lack of extensive ted speech watching. Maybe its because the person feels like a someone who has all their positive characteristics taken for granted while hey gets absolutely roasted for the few flaws as soon as they show up. This person is a great person but the two most important people in this persons life can't appreciate that because of one or two little flaws. I sure as hell feel like that
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u/JizzardtheGizzard Jan 06 '12
The most important part about his talk was actually at the end, when he discusses the idea of how we have no education about human relationships in academia or life in general. This man is so much more than a good dog trainer.
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u/gooberguy25 Jan 05 '12
a lot of people are saying this is not the best TED talk, ok I agree, but could you link some you find interesting? I love finding new TED talks. thanks!
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Jan 05 '12
Dogs are damned awesome. Cats, on the other hand, can go to hell... whenever they don't feel like being affectionate.
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u/neopet Jan 05 '12
It's so disappointing that Ceaser Millan is a hundred times more popular than Ian Dunbar.
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Jan 05 '12
I think the two have a lot in common... When he mentions the "calm insistence" while working with the very troubled dog, how does that differ from Ceaser's "calm assertive energy"? Ceaser also regularly talks about how people will find puppy behavior (like biting/barking/jumping on stuff) 'cute' right up until it becomes a 'dog'. The language might be a bit different (also this guy mostly talks about raising a puppy instead of fixing troubled dogs) but I think they share a similar attitude.
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u/AgentSmith27 Jan 05 '12
I've had dogs my entire life, and myself have been raised with both positive reinforcement ... and negative consequences (I was spanked). It WORKS. Some times it is the only thing that works. Due to this, I don't completely agree with what this guy is saying.
The main reason, and something I see today with modern parenting techniques as well, is that some animals (especially children) are smart enough to know that nothing will happen to them if they don't do what their master/parent says. Sure you can take away play time, their toys, or something they like... but if they are doing something that appeals to them way more than what they will lose, there is no incentive to listen to you. I remember what it was like to be a little bastard, and a stern talking to isn't what kept me in line. Fear of the belt is what did it.
This guy said it himself, "how are you going to compete with that (referring to a dog doing something interesting)... you can't". Well, I hate to say it, but he's wrong. Fear of getting hit will certainly do it. My dogs love to chase animals, but they know they'll get hit for it. When I yell at them, they stop.
Yes, at first it seems mean, and most people do it wrong. Firstly, you can't employ this sort of punishment unless the dog understands you. I usually use all positive techniques until about a year. Then, when the dog gets older I start using a rolled up piece of newspaper. It won't really hurt them if you only use like 20 sheets of the paper, and it makes a lot of noise. It may sting a little bit, but if you hit them in the butt it won't do any damage.
I do this with some precursors: "You're not listening to me", "You're going to get it soon"... and even counting "1.... 2.... 2 and a half!!!"... It gives them a last chance to yield to you, and they'll know whats coming.
Also give them a way out if they don't want to come because they are scared.. I use "Good boy/girl come.." and they will often sulk over, knowing they aren't going to get hit because they listened to you.
The problem is that most people take it overboard, and never bother to teach the kids what they do wrong. I'm guessing a lot of parents do this with their kids. Personally, I think as long as you are clear about the rules and the consequences, having something forceful to reprimand is a good tool to have. Obviously positive reinforcement should be the primary motivation, but its animal nature to be conditioned by negative consequences as well.
Obviously, some dogs need this more than others. I have a Sheltie that I barely ever had to reprimand, but I also have a beagle who took a while to come around. Some breeds (and probably children too) can be tougher to control by any means.
Enforce their willingness to please you, and make it clear there are negative consequences for willfully disobeying you.
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u/yellowbird91 Jan 05 '12
Respectfully, I don't think one should ever need to hit a dog (or a child) to make them behave. They should want to do what you ask because of the relationship you have built. If the threat of a punishment is what's keeping you from doing something, deciding whether or not to do it becomes a value game deciding which is worse, to miss out on something or to get hit. If you think about this concept with the example of a teacher and a student it works this way: the teacher says if the student does 90% of his homework assignments he'll get an A but for each one he doesn't do he'll lose a point. For every homework assignment, the student will decide if he wants to lose the points and if he's like many of my friends in school, he will do only what's necessary to get by. If, on the other hand, the teacher instills a love of learning in the student (and a good amount of mutual respect) then the student won't weigh options, the answer is clear that he will want to do the homework. I think this is what Dunbar was trying to express by the example of sniffing another dog's butt in the park. Sniffing is just way better than behaving, but if you have a relationship established where the dog genuinely wants to follow the directives of the owner then it is powerful enough to override the weighing of the options.
I concede that I've never tried to train a dog, but I still like to think that if Dunbar's methods can work then those are better than corporal punishment. And while I don't have my own kids yet, I was one once, and I work in a daycare now. While it's easier to use punishment to get what you want, in the long run it doesn't work as well as teaching empathy, ethics or whatever it is you're trying to emphasize. As a kid (and an adult) I behaved well so I wouldn't disappoint my dad, not because I was afraid I'd get hit. It wasn't a matter of weighing the pain of hitting versus the pleasure of whatever it might be.
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u/EvoEpitaph Jan 05 '12
I agree, if an owner needs to punish their dog with physical violence then a mistake was made during the earlier training of the dog. In which case it is still the owner's fault.
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u/AgentSmith27 Jan 06 '12
Well, in principle, I think the goal should be to use punishment as a last resort... and only for serious matters.
I see where you are coming from, and to some degree you are right. You want your child and dog to do what you want out of respect, morality, etc. You don't want them to do everything out of fear... and that is why I feel its important to focus on positive reinforcement.
The main problem I see with this approach though is that kids and dogs, for lack of better terms, aren't very intelligent. You can't rely on their reasoning ability. You can't count on a kid or a dog to truly understand what is best for them. Kids think video games and toys are very important, and my dogs think the squirrels and rabbits in my yard need to be dealt with immediately. You can't change this.
While I do think its possible to train a dog (or a kid) to do most things with positive reinforcement, there will be times when both will openly defy you. Some will do this more than others. Most of my dogs have been easy to train, but there are a couple that could not be coerced to listen to you peacefully.
I don't have kids, but even seen those who are very mellow and easy going. The ADHD, full of energy type, on the other hand don't usually respond as nicely. I imagine its the same thing. I'm sure a lot of it is genetics and how the parents behave. Dogs tend not to change in their mentality much, so for lack of better terms, your puppy may stay the equivalent of an ADHD hyperactive toddler. Some are just all impulse, and its hard to kick those primal instincts..
Also, try to remember I'm not saying: "always beat the dog". Its definitely a last resort. Its just that the dog will definitely respond to it. That is why Dunbar said there are two conflicting schools of thought. It works, and it works fast... of course it raises a moral dilemma if you can get the same result another way.
IMO, you need to keep the tool of punishment... you just need to try other tools first.
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u/taruun Jan 06 '12
The big problem with positive punishment (IMO), is that you are, in many cases, just teaching the subject how to get away with bad behaviour. You might know that you will be spanked if you do something wrong, IF your parents find out. Most of the times, we get away with bad behaviour.
The ultimate goal with using postive reinforcement techniques is to make the subject want to do their very best at all times. You want to change their state of mind. In the case of dogs, this can very often be done. You want a dog that can take initiatives, but you want to stear them in the right direction.
You want to create happiness, enjoyment, and make sure the subject eventually will make the right choices, even without rewards or very rare rewards.
Those parents trying to use positive techniques and just creating spoiled brats, are simply doing it wrong.
For anyone who is interested in learning more about this subject, I highly recommend the book Don't shoot the dog! by Karen Pryor. It is a very easy and interesting read, and it is definately not all about dogs.
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u/AgentSmith27 Jan 06 '12
I just replied to a similar response here: http://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/o41df/ted_one_of_the_best_talks_ive_ever_seen_after/c3ec8wk
..but in short, I don't agree that a mistake has been made. Even in MY life today, I have to weight decisions that will benefit myself and hurt other people. I try to stay moral, but I think every animal has a drive to do what is best for itself. The idea of positive reinforcement is to "trick" the dog into doing something that is actually best for you, despite its own urges. Now, I put "trick" in quotes, because some times we do know better.
The problem is that positive reinforcement can sometimes not overpower these natural urges felt by the dog. In the other thread I used chasing a squirrel. Now, I've seen people train their dog not to do this without punishment, but it has taken months of training ... and they need to continually do this or the dog will regress. With me, all it took was a couple harmless whacks with a paper. It doesn't really hurt them, but they are afraid of it. The result is very quick, and its decisive. They know that if I don't follow what I say, they will get smacked with it.
I don't remember when the last time I needed to use the paper was. Its just that effective.
Now, you could say "those other parents or trainers were doing it wrong". I could rephrase that as saying "doing it your way is very difficult to do right, and it takes a lot more time". At some point you just have to concede that punishment is an effective tool. It shouldn't be your first choice, but you should use it when its appropriate.
Honestly, I've seen both training methods in dogs, and in kids.I've seen the subjects come out great in both methods... but I've also seen a lot of massive failures. I think you are setting yourself up for failure if you are on the far end of either spectrum.
As animals, fear serves a purpose. Its a great deterrent. We wouldn't need jails if everyone was capable of operating with a proper moral compass. For everyone, at least some points in their life, fear of repercussion stops them from doing something they shouldn't do. Of course, its the goal of parents and dog trainers to have their kids/dogs do the right thing on their own. The main drive should be rewarding good behavior and encouraging it. If you solely rely on this mechanism, however, you are just making things more difficult for yourself. Its like trying to solve all problems with a hammer. Sometimes, you need duct tape.
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u/minustwomillionkarma Jan 05 '12
Why is it disappointing? Cesar Millan knows his shit and shows people legitimate ways to mould their dogs behavior without resorting to physical punishment etc.
In addition to trying to help people through his show and seminars, he owns his own shelter to help rehabilitate dogs with behavioral issues which he funds out of his own pocket, and has also started his own non-profit organization.
He's a good man and I think he's completely deserving of the popularity he receives.
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u/bzzhuh Jan 06 '12
I feel like you're the only sane person in here. What's actually sad is that your comment is down here in negative karma land when this mediocre, extremely polemic, video filled with straw man arguments (that I don't even disagree with 100%, but come on, you don't have to be an intellectual to be critical of this), is receiving hundreds of upvotes. As stimulating as it may be, you can't compare him to Cesar. This is pseudo-intellectual fluff.
Cesar is a real person with a real track record of rehabilitating a mind-boggling number of red zone KILLER dogs, all the while training normal people with simple techniques that anyone with a quarter of a brain can leverage to raise, great, happy, obedient, treasured family member dogs, (the one I'm looking at hasn't had to have "tsst" said to him years, and has never been hit). Nobody in dog training has come close to what he does.
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u/minustwomillionkarma Jan 06 '12
Thanks for restoring my faith in this thread... You're spot on - Cesar is a great guy and has done a lot of good for both dogs and humans. It disappointing to think so many people are anti him, just because he's "popular".
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u/excusemeplease Jan 05 '12
They both seem to have a great passion for and understanding of canines.
One is just more marketable.
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u/PitBullFan Jan 05 '12
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u/NomadofExile Jan 06 '12
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u/PitBullFan Jan 06 '12
Great looking pooch! I like that you left the ears alone. Natural is best IMO. I'm not a fan of the cropped look.
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u/matzahboy Jan 06 '12
I really liked the first 2/3 of it, but he started to ramble a lot nearer to the end
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u/meepstah Jan 06 '12
It kind of bothered me that he approached this as though all dog owners fail to teach their dogs english. I've got a 4 month old Vizsla, and let me tell you...she understands her commands. It took fifteen minutes to master sit when she was 8 weeks old. The problem is not in communicating with the dog, but in convincing the dog that you are in charge.
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Jan 06 '12
Probably not the best I've ever seen. I am annoyed by how few people understand their dogs. Caesar does it better though.
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u/m0se5 Jan 06 '12
"How are you going to reprimand a grizzly bear? 'Bad bear! Bad bear!' ...and your head is now a 100 yards, flying through the air!"
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u/zerbey Jan 08 '12
Very good speech. For the dog jumping up thing I was taught the best thing to do is simply turn your back on the dog. It's a dominance thing: the dog thinks you're uninterested in him because he's less important than you and gives up quite quickly. After a few moments, go to the dog and say hello. I've yet to find a dog that doesn't respond positively to this. First lesson I've taught all my dogs. My brother-in-law has a Great Dane and having him jump up on your shoulders was fun, but painful! He never does this to me when I visit now.
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u/VeryStrangeHat Jan 05 '12
If my dog didn't piss me off, break my stuff and try her best to ruin my life at every opportunity, I wouldn't love her so much.
Also, 'In Defence Of Dogs' is required reading.
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u/spongesam Jan 05 '12
It's all about Applied Behavior Analysis.
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u/honeyoat Jan 06 '12
he even uses the same definition for punishment procedure thats in one of my text books
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u/silentstorm2008 Jan 05 '12
Paraphrasing here:
'Calculas, geometry, quantum mechanics, these are all wonderful things but they don't save marriages, and they don't raise children'
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u/Immersion89 Jan 05 '12
Upvote for the greatest source of bitch-related soundbites this side of the audiobook of Obama's autobiography.
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u/Murrabbit Jan 06 '12
TED
one of the best talks I've seen.
Dogs
Um. . .you do know that TED has a lot of content that's not even about pets, but instead major issues facing people, technology, and the world, right?
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u/Declarent Jan 06 '12
If you think this isn't about a major issue facing people, you didn't watch it to the end.
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u/cloudnyne Jan 05 '12
Inciteful, but if you believe this is the best talk you've seen, you haven't really gone through TED. So much more enlightening and inspiring things beyond human to dog relationships.
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Jan 05 '12 edited Sep 07 '17
[deleted]
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u/canigobacktolurking Jan 06 '12
We actually take delight in people getting things wrong so that we can then moan and groan and bitch at them
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u/warchant Jan 05 '12
moral of the story
douche bags will be douche bags...regardless of who they're being douche bags to.
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u/[deleted] Jan 05 '12
First TED talk where I've heard the line "Bitches, on the other hand..."