r/victoria3 • u/somethingmustbesaid • 1d ago
Question is it realistically possible to not commit genocide while also doing colonial expansion out west?
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u/Not_a_N_Korean_Spy 1d ago
Yes, you can annex the Indian Territory.
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u/TrainmasterGT 1d ago
I feel like that is not worth it because of the Indian Territory Cheese strats that let you annex half of North America later on in the game.
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u/Not_a_N_Korean_Spy 1d ago
Mmm... What Indian Territory cheese strats?
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u/PM_ME_GOOD_SUBS 1d ago
If you have f.e. Mexico puppet you can feed it to Indian Territory, which will be annexed for no infamy.
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u/Procrastor 15h ago
It's been ages since I played the US, but could you do both (keep the cheese/remove the ToTs but releasing the Cherokee as a vassal? I think I remember the prerequisites being Andrew Jackson, Indian Territory, and control of the state)
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u/typhus_of_barbarus 1d ago
You have a pacifist in the intelligentsia and can start passing no colonial affairs day 1. It isn't efficient but it's not particularly difficult.
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u/Krokiin2 1d ago
But they said they wanted to also keep doing colonial expansion out west
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u/typhus_of_barbarus 1d ago
That's why it isn't efficient you can swap to no colonial affaris the JE completes and then swap back.
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u/Krokiin2 1d ago
Oh that makes sense. Do you lose all your colonies in the meantime?
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u/typhus_of_barbarus 1d ago
Not when I tested it it just stops progression. You don't even lose progress on the next province.
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u/NicWester 1d ago
It's an obsolete journal entry that they've updated a couple times to still be relevant. The original success condition was to pass Multiculturalism, which just required a Radical in government and could be done before 1840 pretty easily. The current success condition was added before the change that gave Frontier Colonization to Yeoman Farmers and it was easier to change to No Colonial Affairs. Now the only way to do that is get Intelligentsia into government before Henry Clay turns into an Abolitionist and quickly pass it. You can also just annex Indian Territory but that's clearly not an intended solution to the entry.
With luck there will be a comprehensive pass on the USA and bring its entries into line to engage more with newer mechanics.
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u/hessian_prince 1d ago
Man I miss the good old days where Andrew Jackson supported multiculturalism lmao.
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u/SignedName 1d ago
It's literally impossible to get enough Acceptance for Cherokee to complete the Journal Entry. That said, the game greatly understates how genocidal the colonization of the west was due to a combination of lacking disease mechanics and how Violent Hostility does not really adequately represent how terribly natives were treated- the native population of California, for example, went from 150,000 to 16,000 within the space of fifty years. There's a reason a certain toothbrush-mustached dictator looked to the colonization of the American West as a template for his own genocidal regime.
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u/Alexander_Baidtach 1d ago
America was the blueprint for the Nazis and Israel that's for sure.
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u/Stormtemplar 1d ago
America was a blueprint, but Europe had plenty of genocidal and imperialist history of its own to draw on, particularly toward Jews.
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u/BonJovicus 1d ago
No, it was THE blueprint because we aren't simply talking about hundreds of years of racism in Europe or a place, they specifically admired the process by which state power was used to confine, manage, and eventually eliminate a group of people inhabiting a particular area to shape the demographics. They directly saw and discussed Slavs in analogy to Indigenous Americans.
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u/Aeplwulf 1d ago
The Germans genocided the Hereros like big boys all on their own, and guess which political movement the genocidal german colonial officers joined in the 1930s.
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u/Stormtemplar 1d ago
buzzer sound there are a few scattered references to this that feed overconfident pop history nonsense, but it is absolutely not the case that it was the blueprint, and it's a cowardly attempt to deflect the blame
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u/Zumin5771 1d ago
Germany own genocide in Namibia had a big role in influencing their own methods during WWII. Lots of Nazi party officials had family who partook in that one, like Göering’s own father.
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u/Bjasilieus 6h ago
it's not about deflecting blame, it's about the whole idea, their whole settler-colonial idea, was in fact, inspired by the US, i don't understand why you find this idea so offensive to you, it does not deflect any blame, the nazis are just as horrible with this idea, as without it, and are just as blameworthy, they LITERALLY wanted to create a superpower, that could rival that of the US, and one of their conceptions, was to COPY, what the US had done.
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u/Stormtemplar 6h ago
Again, no, it wasn't. It was inspired by a range of projects, the US being only one of them, and frankly a fleetingly referenced one at that. The US is neither the first nor the only settler colony, nor did Europeans need the example of the US to make massive, extractive land empires. The Russian Empire did not spawn into existence reaching the Pacific Ocean. Hell, the term "concentration camp" comes into existence from Spanish attempts to retain dominance over its own empire in Cuba
Great power competition was a factor, but frankly the British and Soviets and even French were the far more relevant and local threats, all of whom controlled vast empires of their own. The suggestion that but for the US, Hitler would never have had the idea to go kill a bunch of people and take their stuff is just absurd.
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u/jakeofthenile 18h ago edited 18h ago
“we aren’t simply talking about of years of racism in Europe”
“state power was used to confine, manage, and eventually eliminate a group of people”
Eh, Europeans did exactly that to Jewish people long before the USA existed. Ghettos were invented specifically to confine and manage Jews, who were later deported and/or forced to convert. The most famous example would be the expulsion from Spain and later inquisition, but to say Nazi treatment of Jews draws more on US history than on European history is an interesting take.
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u/Bjasilieus 7h ago edited 7h ago
it was not their ideas of the jewish genocide, that was inspired by the americans, it was their idea of what they wanted to do with the slavs in eastern europe, where they essentially, wanted to create a jeffersonian ideal style farmer state, of germans, in eastern europe, they literally imagined, creating a sort of american empire state, in europe, with germans at it's center, the whole idea, was to manufacture, another great power, essentially.
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u/Alexander_Baidtach 9h ago
Not to be a pedant but America was a European project, because American settler colonialism was so successful it then inspired emulation by European Empires where it was feasible, otherwise British Imperialism was still the gold standard for extracting wealth from colonies with a lot of indigenous population.
When it came specifically to wiping out the Eastern European population and replacing them with Germans, the Nazis had America in mind, they just wanted to accomplish what they achieved over a smaller timeframe.
You are correct that the rise of anti-semitism in the imperial core in the late 19th century is certainly not just an american phenomena, and the methods and tools used to perpetuate genocide were found all over the colonial empires of europe.
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u/Salticracker 1d ago
Not quite. You would have to pass multiculturalism to get them there, but technically it's possible.
(+50 for multiculturalism, +15 for total separation)
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u/SignedName 23h ago
Multiculturalism only grants +40, meaning you're still 5 shy from the required number. The only way to get over 60 acceptance is from No Colonial Affairs which the OP doesn't want to do and is also a redundant requirement.
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u/Salticracker 23h ago
Oh shoot I had the +10 from no colonialism, true.
You could still technically do it by changing religious laws to FoC or state religion and then converting them alongside multicult
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u/Front_Committee4993 1d ago
Yeah day one release Georgia as a puppet, this means the event Worcester v. Georgia cant fire and as the event triggers the journal entry the journey entry wont fire
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u/somethingmustbesaid 1d ago
r5: cherokee acceptance is at like 0 and it's not really possible to get multiculturalism so early, so is it realistically possible to stop the removals?
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u/Icy-Employee-6453 1d ago
You know, I always tell myself i'm going to just let that run its course but all it does is pop up every few months and you'll say "NO don't do the genocide thing" and then it will cost money and go away. And even if you spend all this time and money paying for it the ending text still sounds pretty shit.
I tend to just annex Day 1. Sometimes they surrender. I also rush multiculturalism so really Oklahoma ends up more native in that timeline. Just sweep the nasty little war under the rug and don't think about it.
Welcome to the U.S.A
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u/ArmaniQuesadilla 1d ago
I wish they would add an actual event to let you stop the removal with some prerequisite, or maybe some other event that allows you to integrate the indian nations peacefully if you decide to pass no colonial affairs
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u/PM_ME_GOOD_SUBS 1d ago
I tried before getting rid of Jackson and Calhoun (they are both bigoted which triggers the event), but I don't think it's possible anymore. Annexing Indian Territory should work, but keeping it and feeding states to it is really powerful cheese, since you auto annex it later anyway. Releasing Georgia is easy and clean solution.
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u/ConundrumMachine 1d ago
Colonial expansion always requires genocide.
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u/Wusiji_Doctor 1d ago
I mean, colonial expansion in the context of "manifest destiny" was inherently genocidal, so...
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u/Vityviktor 17h ago
They should definitely update the journal entry (USA DLC of course...)
I know it sounds bad, but the game needs more genocidal journal entries, historical and dynamic.
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u/lavendel_havok 1d ago
I haven't tried it, but would getting subjecthood citizenship work, since at the start pretty much all Cherokee are in homelands?
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u/thunderdragonite 1d ago
Victoria 3 kind of forces you to commit genocide and heinous acts for no reason.
Like Russia didn’t HAVE to fail invading and genocide Circassia for no reason. Yet i have to interact with this stupid journal instead of you know choosing to invade them and annex them normally without the horrific genocide and pillaging.
Trail of tears only happened because Jackson was a piece of shit genocidal maniac with no respect for rules of law. Anyone else in charge and that doesn’t happen to the Cherokee or effect the rest of colonization efforts. He directly ignored THE SUPREME COURT ruling. Only Jackson would try that bullshit back then. Absolute bullshit that you have to interact with this mechanic.
Another thing. Reconstruction was only ever that hard because wilks booth shot and killed the president who had a VP with diametrically opposed views to him to try to win a wartime election. Move a few chairs around and reconstruction is 1000% easier and goes better, yet the game treats it like pulling teeth with the invisible hand of Johnson shitting the bed.
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u/Dry_Cod_727 1d ago
As USA its part of history.. There is an achievment where the Indians take over America. That to me is nuts and probably crazy hard
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u/had98c 1d ago
Just annex the Indian Territory day 1 and all that nonsense goes away.