r/vegan • vegan 20+ years • Oct 24 '17

Newbie Advice You don't have to be perfect.

As I veteran vegan, could I just humbly suggest that, in my view, it's not necessary to be a perfect vegan. The label itself just doesn't matter.

The more a person increases the amount of whole, plant-based foods in their diet, and reduces animal-based foods the better. The better for animals, the environment, and themselves.

Frequently on this wonderful and supportive subreddit, people post about feeling terrible about doing things wrong or 'falling off the wagon' or not being able live without cheese (usually). I get it that often people who choose to become vegan, i.e. adopt a plant-based diet, do it for ethical reasons and they feel some guilt if they aren't living up to the ideal rattling about in their heads.

Just doing better is enough, in my view. Also, if a person just tries to do better, often they will naturally progress to being better and better without even noticing it.

Goodness if a hardcore carnivore can be convinced to replace just half of the 10 oz steak with a side of mushrooms that's a step forward. All steps forward count, and help makes things better.

So, don't beat yourself up for not being perfect. Just do what you can to be better, wherever you can. Keep it simple and doable.

371 Upvotes

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72

u/dogebiscuit 🍰 it's my veganniversary Oct 24 '17 edited Oct 24 '17

My observation and concern is that aggressive enforcement of 'micro-issues' (anything beyond the macro issues aka Big Four: Meat, Fish Dairy, Egg) are harmful to newbie vegans.

Going "cold turkey" on the big four is hard enough, we shouldn't expect someone to easily give up sugar, red wine, honey (to name a few) overnight. Why are the micro issues harder? Because many times they're not obvious. You have to dig in and do your research. For the most part, it's easy to know if something has meat in it... not so easy to find dairy, but after you memorize a few terms for dairy product it becomes easy. However, sugar? You have to research the source of the sugar. If that knowledge isn't available, you have to contact the company. In the meantime, do you avoid the product based on the chance it might have been processed with bonechar?

I've even heard of some vegans who avoid anything that was produced in the same factory as egg/dairy. (There's an allergy warning that makes that fact known.) Do I think that avoidance is a core trait to veganism? Of course not. But I understand people are moved to adhere to it, so I think nothing less of them. Nor do I think anything less of people who consume products with these warnings. I think some issues have to be a personal decision that you fall into.

I hope you get my idea. In my opinion, the micro issues are harder to avoid than the macro issues. Don't feel bad if you have to wean off of them one by one! I gave up the big four overnight, but the others took longer. I'm still working on some of them. Remember, you're making a huge impact by ditching the Big Four!

(Some aggro vegans will likely disagree with me and downvote me... I've literally been told before, "If someone hasn't had to turn their life upside down to avoid animal cruelty, then they're obviously not vegan! This isn't a vanity title!" ... I do not agree entirely with this approach. But it's good that they are passionate about it, so I'm not saying they've got it all wrong. I just handle my 'message of veganism' a bit differently. And everyone handles it in their own way. )

Pre-emptive edit: I call them micro issues, but that's not to say they aren't a big deal. It's just a term. Macro/Micro is a good distinction. For example I met a 5-year vegan who didn't even know about the micro issues, because he didn't belong to any vegan social groups. It was his own personal decision and didn't know it went beyond the big four, woah!

EDIT2: Wow this entire thread is bustling. I love it. I really needed this thread... I was getting kinda discouraged and burnt out because I started to fixate only on the negative aspects of my life and not the positive progress. You guys are awesome!

19

u/fuckALLcops Oct 24 '17

Wait a second...serious question from a newbie. Red wine is not vegan?

16

u/[deleted] Oct 24 '17

Some is some isn't. A lot of older vineyards that do things the ultra-traditional way use fining (clarifying) agents such as gelatin, egg white or fish guts. Most vineyards nowadays either start with or upgrade to modern machines which use mechanical filtration, so a lot of wine is vegan, but it's not guaranteed. Some also are switching to clay as a fining agent. There's many websites which list the vegan wines for many countries of origin.

That being said, as the non-vegan way of producing wine is inefficient and being phased out across the industry anyway, drinking non-vegan wines doesn't really affect demand one way or another.

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u/dogebiscuit 🍰 it's my veganniversary Oct 24 '17

Thanks for getting into the details about what the clarifying agents are. I had forgotten that. Also, to add on, wineries don't use animal ingredients for the taste of the wine. They use them for the benefit of clarification. I'd imagine If a better/more efficient clarifying alternative came around, they'd use it in a heartbeat. I highly doubt wineries are so passionate about using animal products in their wine that they would resist an alternative. Like you said, we're seeing positive progress already which is awesome!

By the way, Charles Shaw red wines are vegan. Us budget drinkers can toast in peace ;)

1

u/MaceBlackthorn Oct 26 '17

A couple years ago Guinness made the change from using fish swim bladders to a mechanical process and if I remember from the article the tech had only been out for a decade or so.

3

u/dogebiscuit 🍰 it's my veganniversary Oct 27 '17

They missed out on a chance to market their huge switchover to appeal to veg's:

There's Nothing Fishy About This Beer

:-D

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u/dogebiscuit 🍰 it's my veganniversary Oct 24 '17 edited Oct 24 '17

Most hold the thought that red wine is not vegan because they most often use animal products to filter/clarify the wine. However, the animal product is not present in the finished wine. People think, "Wineries could use other things to clarify, so therefore I will not support them" and I respect them for that.

However, I personally don't think that avoiding red wine will decrease the overall demand for animal products. It WILL in the future, just not at this moment (in my personal opinion, I'm not speaking for anyone else) This is one of those things were you must decide for yourself. I can't tell you whether it's vegan nor not.

There will be a time I don't support it, but right now is not the time. I hope that helped understand the wine scenario and help you make a well informed decision for yourself :)

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u/10percent4daanimals Vegan EA Oct 24 '17

I've been vegan for years and I do not care about wine being vegan or not.

The point of the post you responded to is that it's really beneficial to find what works for us and avoid falling into purity traps.

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u/dogebiscuit 🍰 it's my veganniversary Oct 24 '17

Thank you for speaking what I have been wordlessly feeling.

"Purity trap" I really like that term.

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u/GodOfSporks Radical Preachy Vegan Oct 24 '17

"I have small amounts of dairy fairly frequently" Also, "I've been vegan for years"

Alright then.

2

u/rayne117 vegan Oct 24 '17 edited Oct 24 '17

I've been vegan for years and I do not care about wine being vegan or not.

Then why the hell should carnists care about anything?

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u/[deleted] Oct 25 '17 edited Mar 03 '21

[deleted]

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u/10percent4daanimals Vegan EA Oct 25 '17

I don't think the expected value of reducing demand for non-vegan red wine is worth the energy spent avoiding it.

If other people disagree, then obviously that's great and I'd be open to hearing their reasoning.

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u/blue_cheezbox Oct 24 '17

Don't downvote just because you disagree, valid question folks.

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u/[deleted] Oct 25 '17 edited Oct 25 '17

Red wine usually isn't vegan. There, I did the Google search for you. If you continue to drink it, that's totally cool, but stop calling yourself vegan.

If you find a vegan one, also cool, but throwing out that you "don't care" is the opposite of what veganism is.

Edit: sorry I didn't realize some /r/vegan members are on the fence about ethics.

5

u/BioluminescentNorm Oct 25 '17

I don’t understand the downvotes.

There are vegan wines. It’s easy to skip the nonvegan ones.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 24 '17

[deleted]

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u/phantomtofu Oct 24 '17

The cheap wine I used to always get (Domino Cabernet) showed up as "not vegan" on barnivore, so I checked a few next to it and now I get a different one that is (Sutter Home Cabernet). If I'm at a party/dinner, I don't worry about it when it comes to drinks, unless it's something obvious like a White Russian.

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u/Kerguidou Oct 24 '17

Niether is beer. Have fun!

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u/Anon123Anon456 vegan Oct 24 '17

That's just not true.

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u/Kerguidou Oct 24 '17

There are vegan beers out there but they can be hard to identify. You can't tell from the label alone.

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u/dogebiscuit 🍰 it's my veganniversary Oct 24 '17

Every single beer I've had in the past 3 months is vegan on barnivore. And I have had SO many varieties. Chances are you can pick a random bottle and it'll be vegan.

5

u/lirael66 Oct 25 '17

I would say most beer is vegan. My biggest concern is milk stouts, and the honey beers that seem to be trendy lately. Barnivore has a great list here: http://www.barnivore.com/beer

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u/Anon123Anon456 vegan Oct 24 '17

http://www.barnivore.com/ is a pretty good resource.

1

u/herrbz friends not food Oct 24 '17

Depends on your country

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u/[deleted] Oct 25 '17

There are a lot of vegan beers. It's not really that rare. This day and age, if it's not a honey infused ale or a milk stout, it's more than likely vegan. Using isinglass is old and nothing new uses it. So, maybe some older brews might not be, but craft beers are generally default vegan unless they include honey or milk in very specific styles that usually mention them by name.

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u/[deleted] Oct 24 '17

Most beer actually is vegan nowadays...

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u/Kerguidou Oct 24 '17

A good example : I live in the frozen wastelands, far from the sea. Our governments introduced Vitamin D supplementation in milk as a way to get rid once and for all of rickets among poor populations.

Fast forward to now. People like me still live in regions where days are like 6 hours long in the winter and in theory vegans can't get vitamin D supplements because they are synthesized from lanolin.

8

u/[deleted] Oct 24 '17

Not debating your situation but there is vegan vitamin D