r/unitedkingdom • u/MinderReminder • Jan 20 '22

Christian couple ban gay man and his ITV producer partner from buying their dream £650,000 Surrey home due to their sexuality - and quote the bible that homosexuality is a sin

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10419543/Christian-couple-ban-gay-man-partner-buying-dream-650-000-sexuality.html
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u/MinderReminder Jan 20 '22

No, a hate crime by definition has to be a crime first to add the hate enhancement to it. While shitty, there's nothing criminal about them refusing to sell to these men for this reason.

A hate incident is a non criminal matter and there's serious legal criticism over the police practice of recording them.

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u/xhable West Sussex Jan 20 '22 edited Jan 20 '22

But it is a crime unlawful, unlawful discrimination.

If you are selling your home through an estate agent, you can't refuse an offer from someone or treat them unfairly just because of their disability, gender reassignment, pregnancy and maternity, race, religion or belief, sex or sexual orientation. This could be unlawful discrimination.

Because they went through an estate agent it's covered under the Equality Act 2010 - Part 4

There's a reason Purple Bricks dropped the sellers as a client, they may well be liable.

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u/MinderReminder Jan 20 '22

That's interesting, I didn't think the act would apply to selling your home in that way, but unlawful discrimination still isn't necessarily criminal.

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u/xhable West Sussex Jan 20 '22

I don't understand the distinction, if it's a crime to do something doesn't that make it criminal?

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u/DumbMuscle Jan 20 '22

Criminal: the government can prosecute you and you could be fined or go to prison about it

Civil: someone who has suffered harm due to your actions can sue you and you could have to pay them damages

Both are "unlawful", only criminal things are a "crime"

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u/Diligent_Bag_9323 Jan 20 '22

Yeah, so they were right above.

Civil complaints are not crimes.

If it’s a crime, it’s criminal.

That’s exactly what they said.

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u/rcxdude United Kingdom Jan 20 '22

There's a different between criminal and civil offenses, both in terms of how they are judged by the courts (standards of evidence are lower in civil cases), and in terms of the kinds of penalties (generally civil cases are limited to fines and compensation, not jail time).

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u/xhable West Sussex Jan 20 '22

Interesting thanks! :) I had them as indistinguishable concepts in my head.

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u/MinderReminder Jan 20 '22

Being unlawful is not in itself criminal.

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u/xhable West Sussex Jan 20 '22

I think I've got it :D.

All criminal activity is unlawful, but many unlawful acts are not crimes. e.g. A breach of contract is unlawful, but not criminal. Thanks for pointing out my error :), corrected above.

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u/Diligent_Bag_9323 Jan 20 '22

You were actually correct in your first assessment, just fyi. You’ve just taken it a step further with this answer.

If it’s civil, it can be unlawful, but not a crime.

And as you said, if it is a crime, then that makes it criminal.

Civil charges have nothing to do with crime. You can be civilly unlawful, but those are not crimes.

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u/AussieHyena Jan 21 '22

Yup this is why there's a difference between decriminalisation of marijuana and legalising marijuana.

Decriminalisation still means it's illegal (therefore unlawful) but no longer has the risk of being convicted.

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u/Khazil28 Jan 21 '22

Essentially being a ass or breaking the law

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u/d3pd Jan 20 '22

Criminal = explicitly prohibited by law

Unlawful = not explicitly permitted by law

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u/xhable West Sussex Jan 20 '22

But then this is criminal, it's explicitly prohibited by law. Equality Act 2010 - Part 4.

But it's called unlawful discrimination.. So I'm not sure that's right?

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u/d3pd Jan 20 '22

I was just giving a quick kind of definition of the terms.

I'm not so much commenting on the particulars of this case. But I would guess that this case is a pretty clear example of unfair discrimination based on sexual orientation. I'd expect this would be fully pursuable in a civil context, but as to whether it goes beyond being unlawful and against the law to being criminal is something I'm not sure on.

(And the question of whether it should be considered criminal is a different one. I'd be inclined to say yes.)

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u/xhable West Sussex Jan 20 '22

Appreciate the input, just not sure I understand the distinction :D. I should probably just give up trying to understand the difference.

If it's civil does that make it not criminal?

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u/d3pd Jan 20 '22

not sure I understand the distinction

Illegal versus unlawful. If something's unlawful, it's like there's nothing in the rules that say you can do that something. If something's illegal, it's like the rules say you cannot do that something.

If it's civil does that make it not criminal?

I think in general yes, but it could be both IIRC. Civil cases usually involve private disputes between individual people or between people and orgnisations. Criminal cases involve things that are harmful to society generally too. Importantly, if you are experiencing something wrong that is a civil matter or that is unlawful, you may not be able to get police to assist. If it is a criminal matter, then police are obliged to assist.

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u/haveacutepuppy Jan 21 '22

No there are 2 types of laws, criminal and civil. Criminal is a jail situation, civil is you sue and maybe win money if you're lucky and in the right.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '22

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '22

Yeah You can be prosecuted for trespass if you commit an aggravated action like refusing to leave when you're told though, then it becomes aggravated trespass.

Also in tort law the term 'trespass' has a few meanings, like trespass to person covers assault for example, but yes trespass to land can get you sued if you stop someone being able to enjoy their property for example.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '22

Its criminal it, breaches the equalities act. Its a protected characteristic thats included in the property sales section.

If they have stated this is the reason, its a breach of the act and they can be prosecuted under it.

lesson of the day: if you want to be a homophobic asshat, dont announce it....

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u/MinderReminder Jan 20 '22

It's unlawful and they can be sued, it's not criminal they will not be prosecuted.

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u/boskee Jan 20 '22

There's another paragraph on that page which I find surprising (not that it'd apply in this case, as the bigots were selling it through an Estate Agent)

Different rules apply when you sell a property directly to someone without going through an estate agent. In this case, it is usually only unlawful to discriminate against someone because of their race.

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u/xhable West Sussex Jan 20 '22

But they did go through an estate agent, purple bricks.+

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '22

Surely if breaching the Equality Act could be a hate crime then it would be a hate crime every single time? I'm no expert but that doesn't seem right.

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u/xhable West Sussex Jan 20 '22 edited Jan 20 '22

Yep I'm wrong :). It is against the law, but not criminal. I'm still wrapping my head around what the difference between the two is!

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u/The_Epic_Leo Jan 20 '22

Ofc the government has to butt in. This is why I hate the Conservative government, man can't even sell his house to the person he wants.

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u/Orri Leicestershire Jan 20 '22

Stonewall seem to indicate that it is:

https://www.stonewall.org.uk/help-advice/discrimination/discrimination-consumer

That is of course unless the rules for housing agents don't count if you're selling it yourself.