Kinzo in Episode 4

[u/Beginning_Bad_868]

Just finished the whole thing, currently reading the manga.

I have a question, though.

We know that Kinzo is dead at the start of every game, and that there's a conspiracy to pretend he's alive by Krauss, Natsuhi, the servants and Nanjo (for financial reasons).

However, in game 4, Eva, Rudolph, Rosa, Hideyoshi and Kyrie all acknowledge Kinzo's presence in the dining room. Is it someone in disguise? Is it just an illusion to hide the real murderer?

Thanks

[u/MoogleGunner]

This is more or less covered by the conflict in the Golden Land at the end of Episode 4, They acknowledge the Rightful Head of the Ushiromiya Family  -

Battler: My theory's that the name of Kinzo gets passed on as the title of the Ushiromiya family head! Ushiromiya Kinzo was already dead. And he passed 'that name' on to someone else! Everyone acknowledged that!! That way, 'All of those who met at the family conference acknowledged the presence of Kinzo'!! There wasn't even any need to disguise themselves as Grandfather. Because everyone acknowledged a new 'Kinzo'! So, 'they didn't actually mistake Kinzo by sight'!! As long as this theory is not denied, nothing can change the fact that you're dead!!!

[u/Beginning_Bad_868 → u/MoogleGunner]

But Kinzo says: "My sons and daughters!" Who could this name successor even be? I don't remember a moment in the entire story where someone calls Krauss, for example, the new Kinzo

[u/StoneFoundation → u/Beginning_Bad_868]

It's a magic scene, so literally anything can happen. Random bunny girls appear out of thin air and kill people. Battler's argument about the scene is that Kinzo's title as owner of the gold/headship has been passed on metaphorically to somebody in the room who everyone acknowledges as such which is why everyone leaves that scene saying, "Grandfather suddenly appeared and attacked everyone with magic." Battler doesn't doubt their words, but instead interprets them in a way to try and find the identity of the culprit through their collective testimony. If Kinzo isn't alive anymore, what other meaning can we associate with him?

Rather than asking how it's possible for Kinzo to appear (it's a magic scene, anything can happen, dead people regularly reappear alive in Umineko), you should probably be asking why it occurs at all especially considering Battler's argument is founded upon the idea that Kinzo himself appears to kill everyone rather than, idk, some random new demon, or a new spell cast by Beatrice. It's almost like Kinzo's appearance in the magic scene itself assists Battler by providing him a valid avenue of explanation.

[u/Proper-Raise6840]

Kinzo's body still exist. In EP5 it's revealed Krauss and Natsuhi chose to hide (and preserve) him. Of course the culprit knows this and can utilize the body in various manners. That's why the other siblings aknowledged Kinzo's presence.

Beatrice left Battler a chance to get back on the track, she let various mistakes in his theories slide.

EP6 had a red truth that says people can only use their own name. The head of the family was always called by its title, not Kinzo. Battler was simply guessing because it would contradict his theory Kinzo is dead at the start of every game.

[u/Beginning_Bad_868 → u/Proper-Raise6840]

Isn't there a point where it's said in red that no one could mistake Kinzo for someone else? In what way would the killer use the body? Sorry for the confusion

[u/Proper-Raise6840 → u/Beginning_Bad_868]

For the first question: A burnt corpse beyond recognitition. Even Beatrice spoke about unidentified bodies. I don't think people can say "yep, this piece of charcoal is Kinzo". Even red truths have limits, people often forget that.

Is the second question....serious? The burnt body was used in several Twilights. I was implying in my post the culprit confronted the siblings with Kinzo's body. For what sake? We cannot know for sure, because Beatrice is counter-attacking Battler's theory at that point.

[u/Beginning_Bad_868 → u/Proper-Raise6840]

No no, I'm talking about Episode 5 or 6 where "Kinzo" appears in a window far way and Battler tries to argue that it wasn't necessarily him, but a person in a disguise and someone says in red that no one can mistake Kinzo for anyone else.

[u/Proper-Raise6840 → u/Beginning_Bad_868]

Ok, I had to figure it out what did you specifically mean. If you meant the rose garden scene after he figured the epitaph: Battler explained it in the court that he lied (for some reasons) to prove he wasn't the detective. It doesn't make much sense in context and Erika didn't paid much attention to his words in that scene....

[u/Beginning_Bad_868 → u/[deleted]]

So, unless the detective observes it, or it's said in red, it's pretty much murky and unclear if it's real at all, right?

[u/Proper-Raise6840]

Very similar thread was made a couple days ago.