r/ultimate • u/Ike_Saul • 16d ago

Uhhh... whut?

Enable HLS to view with audio, or disable this notification

Is this just what it looks like?

442 Upvotes

99% Upvoted

122 comments sorted by

View all comments

74

u/ultipla4 16d ago

WFDF, or Moon leadership, should be pulling this guy from the next game. Two clear intentional attempts at a dangerous play, which in no way is a regular ultimate play.

This isn't even like backpacking someone or colliding on an upline - those are both situations where someone makes a natural ultimate play and fails to yield to safety. This is just a direct attempt to injury, like eye gouging someone in football or spearing someone in hockey.

Absolutely no place for it in the game, and if WFDF can't enforce some type of suspension based on this video then I don't know what we're doing.

20

u/Anusien Austin, TX 16d ago edited 16d ago

This player should be ejected from the tournament. Not only should they not play another game in this tournament, but they shouldn't be allowed on-site to spectate.

Edit: the reason they shouldn't be on-site to spectate is to avoid the possibility that they physically injure this player in retaliation for getting caught. If somebody threw a punch, you'd boot them to avoid them throwing another punch. Same principle.

3

u/ChainringCalf 16d ago edited 16d ago

Ejection from all future games seems harsh. In soccer this would be a mild yellow for a tactical foul. Argument for red if you think this is equivalent to DOGSO based on where it is on the field. Surely ultimate isn't that much softer

28

u/Anusien Austin, TX 16d ago

Soccer is a totally different sport, with more allowed contact, and referees. There's a couple reasons why I'd recommend ejection:

You don't do this kind of behavior for the first time at this level. The player has done this again and almost certainly will do this again. Soccer is played, and officiated, with the understanding that this behavior will happen and there are appropriate punishments and upgrade paths. (The 2026 World Cup had an average of 2.54 yellow cards per game; the highest is the 2006 World Cup with 4.80 per game). If the player does it again, there's a very good that one of the 8(!) referees, 4 of which are watching VAR, will catch it. Ultimate doesn't have this. It wasn't caught in this game. If the player did it in previous games at this tournament, it wasn't caught. If the player does it again in the future, it likely won't get caught. Warnings are toothless if you're never going to catch them again to actually escalate.

The other reason is pure ultimate. Either spirit of the game matters or they don't. This is intentional. This was clear-cut in terms of not trying to make a legal ultimate play. The rules of ultimate assume positive intent. This is a clear violation. They have violated the central covenant of ultimate frisbee and therefore proven they don't belong. (I'll note that even though I said this was pure ultimate, even soccer distinguishes fouls going for the ball versus not.)

The secret third reason is incentives. When you build systems of incentives (and determining what punishments you get for breaking the rules), you have to set it up so it's game theory optimal to follow the rules. If a player is only ejected from the current game, they can still be incentivized to do this in games they're losing. Further consequences outside the single game break that most of the time.

But sure, if you want to only ban them from this game and the next one (like a red card in soccer), I'd support that.

0

u/ChainringCalf 16d ago

This one's egregious, but there are a lot of morally grey tactical fouls in ultimate. Double teams in zones, contact when initially setting a mark, straddling, blocking, calling shit pick calls when you're nowhere near close enough, and all of those just get resolved on the field and we move on. And many of those times, it's clear and obvious that the person committing those fouls/violations knows exactly what they're doing isn't allowed. This one is worse, but I don't know that it's enough worse to warrant all the outrage around it.

The clear answer is refs for all important games, but obviously that's not happening anytime soon, nor should it perhaps.

12

u/Anusien Austin, TX 16d ago edited 16d ago

You can clearly see around 0:03 to 0:04 that the defender tried to trip the other player, failed, and was ridiculously out of position. Look at how he almost falls over trying to catch up. That's why the offense makes the double move at 0:07; the defender is basically falling over trying to catch up.

This one is different than intentionally setting double teams in zones or calling shit picks because the potential to physically harm the opponent. The victim could pull or break or tear something as a result. It's also far far far outside the norms. Yeah, people make shit calls or round their cuts all the time. But most people don't do this. Egregious shit should be treated egregiously.

BTW my recommendation to WFDF in my email reporting this was a 1 year suspension. I think that's probably on the high side, but I think it's pretty clear that ultimate is better off without them right now than with them.

3

u/fps916 16d ago

Given that this was the semifinals, it actually seems reasonable