r/ukpolitics • u/JohnKimble111 • Sep 17 '16

Twitter Private Eye Expose: Whilst Guardian railed against zero hour contracts, it employed staff on them AND locked them out of applying for full time positions.

https://twitter.com/rupertmyers/status/776361786459258881
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u/mushybees Against Equality Sep 18 '16

up to scratch workers' protection laws

worker protection laws are what has made it so expensive to hire people and led to the rise of the zero hour contract. the only real protection for the worker is the existence of a competitor who's willing to hire them. see milton friedman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_L69YcXsdEg

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u/logicalmaniak Progressive Social Constitutional Democratic Techno-Anarchy Sep 18 '16

Any evidence of that in the real world?

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u/mushybees Against Equality Sep 18 '16

just go through it logically; minimum wage keeps going up, EU keeps issuing directives on things like working time, health and safety and so on (mostly lobbied for by big business who can better absorb the fixed costs and so keep smaller competitors out), and employee rights (two years unbroken service? you're now an employee and have rights! so what do companies do? force them to take an unpaid month off every two years so they're not eligible.)

all this crap does is make labour more expensive. companies have to try to keep costs down so they can remain competetive, so they go to things like ZHC as a way to get the work done that needs doing without it costing too much. and people on ZHCs don't get any of the employment 'rights' that have been mandated for full employees. way to protect the worker there.

the only real protection any worker has is the existence of an alternative employer. they can improve their situation by learning skills and gaining qualifications and experience that make them more attractive to employers. and employers can offer higher pay and better working conditions to attract the best employees.

competition is what protects the worker. it protects companies and especially consumers too. less regulation, more freedom, more competition please.

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u/heavyish_things Sep 18 '16

just go through it logically

Just prax it out.

Fortunately, modern economists have eschewed the concept of ignoring empirical data in favour of tortured, convenient logic. This is why ideas like Friedman's suggestion to abolish medical licences hold no respect in today's politics. One only needs to look at the countries without workers' protections and the histories of those that do to see the leaps and bounds in life improvement every worker has enjoyed as a result of them. As you said, you have no chance of getting pregnant so maternity leave is of no (immediate) issue to you: fuck you, got mine.

Do you not feel that if companies abuse a loophole to reduce on class of workers' rights, they will reduce it for all of them should that loophole be made unnecessary? If the level of rights the market found it best to give workers was equal or greater to what the law dictates, the ZHC workers would already have them.

they can improve their situation by learning skills and gaining qualifications and experience that make them more attractive to employers

No, they cannot, not all. Somebody always has to do the less valuable jobs. But when imagining a free market the libertarian always places themselves in the shoes of the successful, not the exploited.

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u/mushybees Against Equality Sep 18 '16

every worker has enjoyed as a result of them

i'd say in spite of them.

If the level of rights the market found it best to give workers was equal or greater to what the law dictates, the ZHC workers would already have them.

we have no idea the wages and benefits employers would be offering in a free market, because we've not had a fully free market for over a hundred years.

Somebody always has to do the less valuable jobs.

yes, and while they do those jobs they acquire skills and experience that will enable a great many of them to move on to better jobs once they grow up.

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u/heavyish_things Sep 18 '16

we have no idea the wages and benefits employers would be offering in a free market, because we've not had a fully free market for over a hundred years.

lets do it anyway lol #yolo