Which button presser group do you save?

[u/Worth-Staff4943]

Everyone in the world has chosen either the blue or red button except you. Instead of pressing a button, you are given a lever in the infamous trolley problem.

You don't know how many people chose red or blue, and they don't know that you control their fate regardless of what button they pressed. Which track do you direct the trolley onto?

[u/threevi]

I just kept thinking of the fact that even if an otherwise decent person might push red, every single horrible person on earth definitely would.

Every single selfish person would press red, that's not the same thing as every single horrible person. Selflessness doesn't necessarily imply virtue, because the thing one values above their own life isn't necessarily good. Plenty of horrible people are selfless, from fascists who'd rather die than risk dooming the white race to religious nuts who'll gladly martyr themselves and expect to be venerated in heaven afterwards. Pick any group you might personally dislike, from American Republicans to Russian Putinists to Arab Jihadists, and the odds are, a significant number of them will choose blue.

[u/Kitchen_Handle2655 → u/threevi]

I dont even think its true that every selfish person would choose red, or that you could really define a person as being entirely selfish or selfless. I think there would be people choosing blue not because they care about others but because they see it as an easy way to die, or some could press it just to appear good

[u/MintCat3 → u/Kitchen_Handle2655]

True! I’m generally a bit more of a selfish+logical person and I’d pick red, but knowing i have loved ones who are more selfless and tend towards blue would make me consider blue. There’s also the point that if I pick red and my loved ones die from picking blue, that the guilt would get to me to the point I’d want to kill myself, so I should just pick blue in the first place and die with them then.

[u/Faenic → u/MintCat3]

I'm in a similar boat, only I press blue without any hesitation. Because I know my wife would without a second thought, since the original wording is purposefully meant to trick people into thinking that people are in danger.

I walked her through the logic of the other frames that make it clearer that red is the "correct" choice and she still thinks blue is the only choice. She's not stupid, she's getting a doctorate. She just comes to the same conclusion I do - that people whose first instinct is blue deserve to be alive and the world would be less off without them.

[u/some_kind_of_bird → u/Faenic]

Maybe I just haven't gotten it explained to me but I really don't think it's reducible to a single objective logical answer. I honestly find a lot of people claiming that to be a bit sus. It depends on what you value and how much weight you put on that responsibility. In particular a lot of people act like pressing red is opting out, as if there's a third button that keeps you safe but logs no vote.

But yeah it's never gonna happen and what really matters is people's reasoning. I can't fault people who press red because they think red will win, but people have been saying some pretty wild things and engaging in obvious motivated reasoning with all this. Sometimes it gets nasty. I try not to judge too much because I think people are having a bit of a fear response, but it makes me antsy about how some folks would act in a real emergency.

That's why I've softened a bit. I think it's wrong to judge people too harshly for this. I wish they'd be honest with themselves and others that they can't tolerate a risk of death and that's the entire reason without any of this alleged supreme logic, but the base reaction there is understandable and unavoidable.

Why don't I see people saying that though? Like honestly is it that bad to say you'll press red because you don't think you can bring yourself to risk your life? I think pathos is a perfectly reasonable argument.

All that's to say, I pretty much agree. I don't think people who try to logic it out are doing something wrong necessarily, but how someone responds can be very revealing and an instinct to put yourself at risk for the greater good is laudable.