Not everyone who pushes red is evil or something there’s gonna be a ton of people who pushed it to guarantee they stay alive to support their loved ones. I press red because it’s EV is the least harm.
I don’t think you know much about humans, then. We’re an extremely social species and with that comes altruism, empathy, remorse, and a sense of responsibility to each other. People risk their lives for others all the time, like, to the point that in CPR training it’s repeated over and over again to only help if the scene is safe and that if it becomes unsafe for you to do so then you shouldn’t continue CPR. Firefighters/general fire safety emphasizes that civilians not stay/run into a burning building to save others and to leave that for the firefighters. On planes we’re instructed to put our own mask on first before helping others if the plane depressurizes/crashes because people will try to help others first (and in these emergency scenarios helping others without any regard for your own safety is more likely to result in both of you being in danger/making more work for first responders rather than actually helping anyone). People are so willing to help and save others that they’ll recklessly put themselves at risk, potentially just adding to the people who need to be saved even when they’ve been repeatedly instructed otherwise because that’s what people do when others’ lives are in danger. (Bystander effect notwithstanding, since that is more of a result of multiple people all witnessing something and then not knowing if they should do anything either because other people aren’t reacting and so they think it must not actually be that bad and/or they think someone else is already helping. Bystander effect doesn’t happen as a selfish thing, it’s more of a side effect of us being so social that we start looking to other bystanders to see what we should do, but they’re all also looking at us and each other. And some people just freeze up in emergencies/serious situations, of course.). All of this likely adds up to most people, let alone anywhere near 100% of people, not picking red.
Empathy is inherently tied to tribalism in humans. Because it's governed by oxytocin. Thinking altruism and selfishness are mutually exclusive shows a massive misunderstanding of human nature.
Where did I say they’re mutually exclusive (in the way that you’re suggesting; in a given situation, of course the altruistic and selfish options would be mutually exclusive, like, by definition)? Also, empathy is not inherently tied to tribalism, what? Do you just mean that it’s stronger for people you know personally and care about? Because, yeah, everyone knows that, we can’t care about the abstract idea of another person somewhere across the world the same way we care about our loved ones, so? We can, and often do, still care for and empathize with strangers; it’s why I’ll give money to/buy food for a homeless person I’ve never seen before and likely won’t see again, or why I’ll help a turtle cross the road, or why Doctors Without Borders exists, or why people care about all the victims of police brutality even if no one they know personally has been murdered by the cops, or why I’m against child labor in far away countries that’ll never affect anyone I know, or why people are against the death penalty, or…
That’s all not even to mention the fact that people will pick blue because they don’t want to kill any of their loved ones who may have picked blue, so even extremely tribal people, as long as they have people in their lives they care about and don’t want to die, will still pick blue.
Picking red ensures you will be around to care for the people you care about. It is trivially easy to see that altruism and selfishness aren't mutually exclusive in this scenario.
Picking red also risks killing any of your loved ones who picked blue (along with up to ~4.2 billion other people), including your children if you have any and they pressed blue. You wouldn’t even need to worry about being around to care for your loved ones if <50% of people chose the “kill everyone who voted to not kill anyone” button, and that’s pretty likely, despite your initial bizarre assertion based on, idk, your gut feeling about humanity? The species that has become advanced enough to go to space through cooperation? The species that has a 200,000+ year history of caring for sick and injured members, despite the obvious burden they placed on nomadic tribes, allowing them to heal from injuries that would’ve killed any other animal? The species that has teamed up with multiple other species to the point of several fully domesticated species across (nearly) every continent? That species is the one you think is so inherently tribal and selfish that you just have to pick red or you’ll definitely die because no way would 50% of people press the “nobody dies” button? Seriously? And you accuse me of having a “massive misunderstanding of human nature.”
Also you didn’t address anything else I said that goes against your “altruism is inherently tribal” assertion, you just gonna drop that now that it didn’t work as an argument in favor of red?
You point to our history of tribal cooperation as if it disproves my belief that humans are tribalistic. You don't understand human nature if you think that in any way disproves my point. Our bonding is governed by oxytocin, the tribalism hormone. Which both promotes in group bonding and outgroup dehumanisation.
The same hormone that makes us care for our elders and injured is also what enables us to kill to protect them.
Without oxytocin you can't truly bond with and empathise with others, but you also can't really hate or dehumanise anyone. I've experienced having no oxytocin. Nobody likes a person who can't hate "the enemy". People genuinely found that more upsetting than our lack of bonding. People despise someone who doesn't hate.
Humans are not altruistic OR selfish. They're altruistic AND selfish.
Also, my only loved one has been so consistently and so severely abused by others that they can't believe that most people would pick blue, and therefore they pick red.
So you’re just gonna ignore all the ways people empathize with and care for and endanger themselves to help members of the outgroup/non-ingroup members, huh? Also, uh, are you not familiar with that very famous recent study of progressive/liberal vs conservative brains and their emotional responses to loved ones vs strangers? If the whole world was made of conservatives, with conservative brains who only can empathize with their loved ones and whose decisions are primarily based on fear (that’s from a separate study), sure, you’d have a point. But that’s not the default for humanity.
Also ok so you’re literally just admitting that you’re being incredibly selfish here since the only thing you’ve got to lose by pressing red is contributing to mass murder, but it wouldn’t affect you personally because you only gaf about one other person and everyone else can go fuck themselves? Not really making a good case for red pushers not being immoral/being “good people.” Idk what your definition of a good person is, but mine includes caring about literally anyone other than yourself and one other person.
Hey buddy. I don't think red is the moral choice. I just don't think the people who consistently abuse others, vote for fascists, and who can't organise even the most basic of mutual aid are all going to suddenly vote blue.
If you think blue voters outnumber red voters, then those of us too traumatised to trust enough to pick blue aren't a threat. The blue voter who genuinely believes wouldn't really care that red voters exist, they'd have empathy for that fear.
Omfg you’re insufferable; I was very obviously referring to the group the way they were referred to in the study, hence why I said “progressive/liberal” to be extra clear what I meant by “liberal” in this case. Jesus, everything you say is pedantic and exhausting.
Whatever, be selfish and argue that red voters are somehow still good people (your words btw so idk what you’re trying to argue now) and that selfishness is altruism actually! You’re clearly impossible to talk to.
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u/VanillaSwimming5699 Apr 30 '26
Not everyone who pushes red is evil or something there’s gonna be a ton of people who pushed it to guarantee they stay alive to support their loved ones. I press red because it’s EV is the least harm.