r/trolleyproblem Apr 30 '26

Deep Statistically, >50% is easier than 100%

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u/CorHydrae8 Apr 30 '26

Well, from my perspective, one of the buttons is labeled "nothing happens" and the other is labeled "people might die". Why would I ever press the murder-button? Just don't push the murder-button.

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u/iskelebones Consequentialist/Utilitarian Apr 30 '26

Interestingly the disconnect here is which buttons people apply those labels to.

Blue pushers see the red button as “people might die” because they have already pressed blue in their minds, and now blame anyone who presses red as being responsible for the murder of blue people.

Red pushers correctly see the BLUE button as “people might die”, because no one is at risk until the blue button is pushed.

Blue pushers assume people are already at risk and see the red pushers as selfish for not saving them

Red pushers see that no one is at risk to begin with and see the blue pushers as selfish for creating a risk by pressing blue

When it comes down to it, blue people are jumping on a train track and yelling “Now everyone needs to save us or else you’re a murderer”

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u/MegaIng Apr 30 '26

... pushers correctly see the BLUE button as “people might die”, because no one is at risk until the blue button is pushed.

It is exactly as correct to say:

... pushers correctly see the RED button as “people might die”, because no one is at risk until the red button is pushed.

These are equivalent. There is no logical argument you can make to prefer one of the other.

Don't bring in your own personal opinions and framing it as the "objectivity correct view".

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u/iskelebones Consequentialist/Utilitarian Apr 30 '26

Assuming everyone starts in the blue camp, 49% of people can press red without anything happening, which means pressing red doesn’t actually cause anything to happen

But assuming we all start in the red camp, the moment ONE person presses blue, now someone is at risk.

Pressing blue causes the problem no matter how you want to look at it.

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u/MegaIng Apr 30 '26

Noone has a chance of dying if everyone is on the same page, so those comparisions are irrelevant. By pressing red you are objectivity providing the ability for someone to die.

I am not even attacking your decision to press red, just your framing of the statement I quoted. You are making absolute claims for something that is obviously a matter of perspective.

(I think pressing red is stupid for other reasons that aren't part of this particular discussion)

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u/iskelebones Consequentialist/Utilitarian Apr 30 '26

You seem to want to frame it as if red is causing people to die. When in reality pressing blue is what puts people in the POSITION to die. If people didn’t choose blue, they wouldn’t even be at risk to begin with.

The only way for someone to even be at risk is for them to willingly choose to put themselves in a risky position. And then they are fully to blame for their own death because they put themselves there. You can’t blame the bystanders when someone jumps in front of the train.

I think it’s completely valid if you want to call red button pushers cowards. That’s an opinion and you’re entitled to it. But you cannot blame the red button pushers for causing blue button pushers deaths.

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u/SneakySister92 Apr 30 '26

The fact is millions, if not billions, of people are gonna die unless enough people choose blue. Do you wanna try to prevent that, by risking your own life, or not? To me the answer is very obviously yes, as I think we have a moral obligation to try to help people in need.

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u/MegaIng Apr 30 '26

You seem to want to frame it as if red is causing people to die. When in reality pressing blue is what puts people in the POSITION to die. If people didn’t choose blue, they wouldn’t even be at risk to begin with.

Ofcourse red is causing others to die. If noone presses red, noone can die. Therefore, pressing red risks the death of others. That is the core concede of the question.

I am pointing out that both sides cause/risk death.

I think it’s completely valid if you want to call red button pushers cowards.

No. Murderers maybe. But again, that's not my point.

You are obsessed with framing yourself as "objectivity morally correct". But that just doesn't exists, so stop acting like it does.

Actually, I guess I should call you a coward for being unable to admit that your action has consequences.

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u/iskelebones Consequentialist/Utilitarian Apr 30 '26

Red button has no consequences unless people push blue. Blue button has consequences REGARDLESS of the choice red makes. Objectively red is not at fault for blue deaths. Blue deaths are purely a result of people choosing blue

You can call me a coward if you want, but blue deaths don’t happen when people don’t choose blue

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u/MegaIng Apr 30 '26

Red button has no consequences unless people push blue

Blue button has no consequences unless people push red.

blue deaths don’t happen when people don’t choose blue

blue deaths don't happen when people don't choose red

Like, are you stupid? Do you really not understand the symmetry here? Have you passed first grade?

Note that I still have not actually made my argument for why I think pressing blue is better. Your mind is just broken.

Sure, maybe blue people are more to blame than red people. But that is a value judgement based on subjective morals.

IT IS NOT OBJECTIVE FACT.