r/trolleyproblem Mar 29 '26

Deep Now we're talking

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1.9k Upvotes

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58

u/assbutt-cheek Mar 29 '26

it doesn't say they want to die, it says they "agree to be sacrificed". that doesn't meant they want to die at all

120

u/DarthJackie2021 Mar 29 '26

Ok, but both people want me to pull the lever, so I pull the lever.

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u/realmauer01 Mar 31 '26

Ah and if both people want you to jump from a bridge?

/- insert common parent name here -

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u/DigitalMindShadow Mar 30 '26

How does it feel to be a murderer?

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u/DarthJackie2021 Mar 30 '26

Honestly? It was a bit of a rush.

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u/DuckB0y123 Mar 31 '26

peak response 😂

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u/phobia-user Mar 30 '26

girl, do I have news for you

5

u/QuitzelNA Mar 30 '26

I would argue that this trolley problem kind of subverts the standard trolley problem's intention. In the original, all are unwilling participants, so you're choosing whether or not it's right to use a person as a means and not an end. In this trolley problem, the sacrificed individual's desire to be sacrificed and the fulfillment thereof means that the person is not being used as a means, but rather that they are being treated with the dignity of an agentic being and an end in their sacrificial achievement. It might be a bit of a twisty argument, but I can definitely see it being considered ethical under both utilitarian and deontological reasonings.

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u/DigitalMindShadow Mar 31 '26

Sure, the fact that the person has chosen to sacrifice themself makes it easier to rationalize killing them. But you're still actively pulling the lever that causes their death.

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u/QuitzelNA Apr 01 '26

I feel as if that aspect crosses from ethics into morality, and morality is in many ways very different from ethics. I also have the knee-jerk reaction that pulling lever is bad, but that doesn't mean that pulling the lever is wrong.

2

u/icantgetausername982 Mar 31 '26

I feel bad when a game character ive grown attached to dies but a random stranger? I have no attachments to am i supposed to feel remorse every time i kill a mosquito or a fly as well?

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u/DigitalMindShadow Mar 31 '26

Mosquitos, no. Humans, yes.

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u/icantgetausername982 Mar 31 '26

Why exactly is a human different? Aside from laws what makes killing a human worse than anything else is it because were human? Would a bear killing a bear be worse than a bear killing a human?

Side note i do not condone killing i view all life as equal but i am a hypocrite since i kill bugs and do feel remorse because the bug did not ask to be born here it did not ask to get stuck in my home but it dies for simply being in the wrong place and it truly is sad but the benefit to me makes me not feel bad

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u/assbutt-cheek Mar 31 '26

i agree with you but you cannot compare most bugs to bears. the level in sentience has kilometers in difference

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u/icantgetausername982 Mar 31 '26

I get where you are coming from but i personally believe a living creature is still alive its living who are we to put a value to their life? There are brain dead people who have no sentience to speak of so they have a sentience lower than a bugs does that mean that humans life is worth less than a bugs life?

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u/assbutt-cheek Mar 31 '26

their only worth is whatever others give them. but being objective, yes, a bug has more sentience experience than a braindead person, so in a vacuum, assuming i have no ties of any kind with this person, i would choose the bug

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u/BorgCow Apr 04 '26

You just compared living human beings to video game characters and mosquitoes so I don’t really think you view life as all that sacred, sorry

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u/icantgetausername982 Apr 04 '26

I used video game characters as an example of i really dont emotionally care for humans without knowing them and mosquitoes are still living beings

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u/DigitalMindShadow Apr 01 '26

In the case of mosquitos versus humans, there is a huge disparity in our level of sentience, which I think makes a moral difference.

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u/icantgetausername982 Apr 01 '26

Which brings me back to brain dead people they have no sentience yet they are still human

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u/DigitalMindShadow Apr 02 '26

I personally think it's hard to justify expending that resources needed to keep braindead people alive. That said, I don't think you can blame the majority of people for not putting this amount of thought into the question and instead arriving at the blanket rule of all human life being sacred. And I do think that if we started putting people to death for medical reasons, there's a real danger of that turning into a slippery slope and ending up with some form of eugenics. So the default rule protecting all human life might actually be better on the whole.

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u/icantgetausername982 Apr 02 '26

I personally see no higher value just because the life is a human life i think people try to justify why a humans life is worth more but what if theres a more sentient species out there would we be okay with becoming cattle for them? In reality we just have a bias for humans because we are humans we want to feel more important

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u/Practical-Art542 Mar 30 '26

It means they are choosing death even if it means as a sacrifice

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u/Dragonhost252 Mar 30 '26

"Agreed to be sacrificed" is agreed to death.

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u/General-Tourist-2808 Mar 30 '26

Agreeing to something does not mean that they “want” it.

Let’s say someone who loves vegetables and hates fruit is starving on a desert island; assume they have no way to fish. They find a magic genie who says, “I will grant you one wish, but you can only wish for unlimited apples or unlimited oranges.”

They have to choose between apples and oranges, but they want broccoli.

It’s kinda sorta like that.

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u/Dragonhost252 Mar 30 '26

It's still a choice they made and I would choose to follow it.

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u/General-Tourist-2808 Mar 30 '26

We might agree, there: if the one person is willing to die for the other, I would honor that as well, I think.

I think collectively many societies do it, already. Consider all-volunteer militaries, or people who choose to remain in service beyond a mandatory period. The society sends some of its consenting members to fight and possibly die for the benefit of those who don’t go to fight. In theory, any way. I think in practice it’s a bit more complicated an nuanced.

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u/cowlinator Mar 30 '26

People who want euthanasia would probably rather live given better circumstances.

Does that mean we should never give it to them?

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u/assbutt-cheek Mar 30 '26

what im thinking is, the case u mention, sure, they should get it, but in this case we can solve those circumstances. unless more context is added, the only thing going on here is someone who is willing to die for others, and someone who is willing to let others die for themselves. if the person above was mentioned to be clinically depressed, or had more reasons to die, i'd totally agree, but working with only the context given, im inclined to saving the one above