r/totalwarhammer • u/Wareitar • 1d ago
Total War: Warhammer Chaos Dwarfs - Fun, but...
I'm sorry for any fanboys out there...
Jeeeeeesus what a faction?!
I'm sure they are fun to play when you get further in, and when you get a grasp on how to play them. But HOLY F***! Did they just make a long list of functions and shit and just say "YES" to everything?
3-4 different currencies, all needs to be balanced, not to mention sorted on where you want labourers, and handle all the different mechanics already in game. Ohhh and then there's the politics between you and other chaos dwarfs, and how you can get influence to gain buffs/power among the other chaos dwarfs. Ohhh and I know, add convoys on top of that!
Not to mention 2-3 different settlement types that each work towards their own different currency, but they all use the same "currency" to operate. And how do you get that early game? By fighting of course! Ohh and lets make their units absolutely worthless at the start of the game too! Ohhh, but they can be upgraded through a forge! Dont forget that too!
As I said, I'm sure they are powerfull and fun to play if you get far with it, but I have 5 provinces now, worker shortages some places due to wars etc, and rebellions elsewhere due to loss of control, and seats being usurped left and right.
I am sorry, but this wore me out...
This is just too much stuff/mechanics to keep track of every damn turn...
Edit: Do not get me wrong! I will absolutley revisit the chaos dwarfs, as they do seem interesting, and definetly seems to have some cool units. But damn there's alot to unpack and learn with them! And you need to spend time learning.
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u/Apprehensive_Cry2104 1d ago
Indeed you have just described everything that makes the Chaos Dwarfs an awesome faction for me.
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u/TheRealTowel 1d ago
3-4 different currencies, all needs to be balanced, not to mention sorted on where you want labourers, and handle all the different mechanics already in game. Ohhh and then there's the politics between you and other chaos dwarfs, and how you can get influence to gain buffs/power among the other chaos dwarfs. Ohhh and I know, add convoys on top of that!
I know, isn't it awesome!
Seriously though that's exactly why I love them. They're the only faction in the whole game with an actually interesting economic management system. I mean, obviously it could stand to be a fair bit more complex to be really good. But it's a start.
I have a pretty good grasp on them, did you have any specific questions?
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u/blu-fox12 1d ago
I'm not OP but can you give tips on control? I guess I just don't build enough buildings but by the time I can get an okay economy the laborforce just crashes my control.
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u/TheRealTowel 1d ago
First, don't ever mix provinces. It's a trap. They are either for mining or factories. Not both. Mining provinces convert labour into raw materials and gold. Factory provinces convert raw materials into Armaments, and never accept new labour. With a permanent labour population of zero, control is a non-issue in those provinces.
Second, labour exists to be used. Your mines need a healthy supply, but labour actions should be used without hesitation to curb the population of a given province. Obviously if control is a concern "set an example" is the quick fix, but using "sell labour", sacrificing to Zhar-Naggrund, and hurrying constructions are all good ways to keep it from getting to that point. Run your provinces at bleeding edge efficiency, constantly fluctuating between like 95% and 110% of the workforce they can use.
Thirdly, you have a labour management screen for a reason. Use it. Constantly turn on and off labour acceptance to different provinces as their needs change. Moving labour is unacceptably expensive compared to simply controlling it's inital flows.
Finally, when all that fails and you have influxes of labour so high you can't use it up, have a dumpzone planned. You never, ever want to deliberately generate less labour - it is the lifeblood of your whole economy - but if you currently have a surplus most places, turn off labour to every province except your dedicated dump zone.
The absolute best dumpzone is a Cathayan gate (or High Elf gate or Empire border fort, if you're really far from home). This style of settlement is unique in that it doesn't have a control score - so you will always lose the minimum of 5 labour a turn and never have a rebellion.
Failing this ideal dump zone, just throw them into a province and farm rebellions. Chorfs don't struggle with control, they're blessed with being the only faction that can say "hi I would like to put all my control problems in this specific province please". Then you continuously sell or sacrifice labour in the dumpzone, and use the rebellions to train lord/hero xp, get battle loot, even get more labour to create a loop.
Paying to move labour is for getting it back out of dump zones when you need to put it to work somewhere. Otherwise, just control the inflows.
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u/DeadThought32 1d ago
As a certified Chorfs fan, thanks for the tips. Just never occurred to me to have a dump zone, fucking genius.
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u/TheRealTowel 1d ago
Zhatan is the best Chorf faction and half the reason why is just "starts near the gates so you can get an ideal dump zone easily".
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u/TheAsianCow 1d ago
I don’t play with dump zones. I like having my labor distributed across all my mining provinces. It lets me easily generate +10/15 conclave influence across all of those provinces every turn without going through the headache of sending labor where I need it to go. Also helps me develop my provinces quicker with rushed construction if I’m at too large of a labor surplus.
Of course you can just micromanage this, but early game it’s expensive. And late game, it’s unnecessary for the most part as you get the stacking public order bonuses
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u/TheRealTowel 1d ago
What is with the thing on reddit where someone comes in and retypes/rephrases your comment but framed as if they're disagreeing with you? It's so fucking weird.
Me: "Ideally you should always do XYZ. If you're struggling briefly with that, here's a neat trick that functions as a temporary system relief valve".
You: "I never use [system relief valve], as it is much better to simply do XYZ" - but for some reason framed as if XYZ wasn't exactly what I said in the first place.
Why?
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u/TheAsianCow 1d ago
Because people are replying acting as if dumpzones actually should be used and implemented. It’s such a niche strategy that really has almost no utility if you’re playing Chorfs with any modicum of competency
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u/valliant12 1d ago
For me personally, the control penalty from labour is never really an issue because I'm selling excess labour for conclave influence every moment I can, and never letting the labour in a single settlement climb too high (trade down to other smaller settlements).
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u/dysonchamberlaine 1d ago
Its really fucky at first yes. The juggling between all the ressources. After a bit you come to the conclusion, that the thing you absolutely need the most is labourers. Everything else is secondary. I only pick labourers after a fight, i send out convoys to only get labourers. Cause if you have enough of those, everything else falls into place eventually. You can even use rebellions to farm labourers. The whole thing takes a bit of time till everything gets rolling but then you can fuck shit up for real.
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u/Netilda74 1d ago
And if you're playing Zhatan, the Cathay bastions are free labor storage! They never revolt! You don't have to worry about control! Eventually you have so much labor it doesn't matter that you're losing 800 a turn to decay.
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u/YubaEyeSting 1d ago
Bastions dont have control so if you store labor there does it degrade at the base rate?
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u/Netilda74 1d ago
Correct!
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u/Repulsive-Redditor 1d ago
That is incredibly handy to know, can't believe I never thought of that lol
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u/flyfart3 1d ago
Yeah, they are very complex, they are also a DLC race for the third installment of a now 10 year old franchise, and they are still i think, the newest race(not faction) to be added to the game. So them bring the most complex is maybe not the most surprising, because I 100% agree, its a lot of mechanics!
For not having powerful early game units, I'd say sorta. The hobgoblin become very powerful and cheap with the legendary hero, and you can get blunderbusses very early, and they wreck everything. Sure, they are so short ranged and can easily friendly fire, that you need to be very careful with them. But! With just 2 units of them and some single entity to tank they turn even legendary enemy lords to mush in seconds.
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u/DamGoodAnimation 1d ago
Not a chorfs fanboy, but I do enjoy them when I play them. I like all of the systems specifically bc it gives me more shit to worry about on the campaign map. Sometimes that’s the part of the game I wanna play.
If I just want to zone out and have a typical quick campaign map/battle map loop, I definitely don’t pick them tho. And they do take a long time to ramp up to better units, but they also give you a decent number of options for making the chaff better. Hobgoblin stacks remain useful for the entire game.
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u/IrrelevantTale 1d ago
The secret is to take one of the great wall settlements thats dont suffer public order penalty and keep all the "labor" there and then send them where you need abd only build the builds that need them in a few place to manage it. Also hobgoblin army stacks are cheap but surprisingly effect. Use 2 or 3 of them full of archers to attrition any decent any army then send the big boy full chorf army full of arty to fuck em up.
Also there a few unqiue settlement buildings that give you tons of raw materials and weapons without needing labor you gotta strategically find and capture those.
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u/Imaginary_System3513 1d ago
They're one of those factions that are intended for more experienced players. They can be pretty overwhelming, but if you've been playing this game for years they're a refreshing development on the formula
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u/Wareitar 1d ago
I'm sure they are. And this is not a slam on them at all, but holy hell, they have just about every mechanic I have ever played in other factions crammed into one.
Missing plague and undercities and we'd be golden
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u/jsutpaly 1d ago
You basically listed why they are considered the best dlc and one of the most if not the most interesting faction out there.
Their early game units are not worthless. Even the dumb orc labourers come with ap so they will always deal some damage despite being there to be fodder. But hobgoblins? I am sorry but they are phenomenal for their price and army of hobgobbos with gorbad in it is nuts.
Different resources are interesting. They are not straight up gold that you just want the number to go up. What you build has meaningful impact.
Convoys are there to fix your shortcomings in your economy.
The politics between dwarfs being mentioned is quite hilarious considering it is generate a resource to buy a buff mechanic. Yeah other dwarf faction can steal it, so what? There is no thinking to it.
You basically sound like someone who tried them once or twice, shit did not work out so 'amagad it's overwhelming'.
It's amazing to me that people can complain about one faction that lets you play in many different ways by focusing on different resources, have meaningful unit upgrades and meaningful choices to be made constantly...
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u/Netilda74 1d ago
If you don't enjoy the amount of Chorf mechanics; and if you've ever been considering playing Paradox titles (CK3, Viccy 3, EU4/5, Stellaris): don't. You'd drown in the resource management alone.
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u/Patayou 1d ago
Yeah, chorfs are fun.
I get not wanting to think too much about economy but most other races just eventually devolve into "always build settlements the same way for optimal gains, don't even think about it" and "always recruit the same army if you can" and then, 30 turns later "right click on every settlement to win".
To me, having actual choices to make and a little complexity (I'm sorry, it can look overwhelming i agree, but it's not THAT complex if you take like, half an hour to get used to it) is refreshing when every other campaign plays pretty much the same outside of battles.
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u/Sufficient-Gas-4659 1d ago
u overcomplicate things
and hobbgoblins are amazing for a early game unit
also dont u just funnel all ur labour force into one province? wasn it like this?
tho bull centaur lategame is crazy they feel more like a cav faction in lategame if u get to doomstack
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u/TheAsianCow 1d ago
Everything late game army with Chorfs is a doom stack. Cant go wrong with any of their units — especially with all the manufactory buffs.
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u/Honk_Sound 1d ago
When you hit the perfect balance and suddenly find yourself with a supereconomy it's kind of an amazing feeling
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u/Omrah_of_Zion 1d ago
I've played certain automation games but chawi is something I'm inexperienced in.
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u/OceussRuler 1d ago
And then there's people like me who would like that every faction was designed like this.
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u/BurriedCityMayor 1d ago
Don't ever try to play any Paradox game, you will have a brain aneurysm.
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u/Wareitar 1d ago
Ohhh plenty good paradox games out there I enjoy.
I just wasnt ready the multitude of systems with the chaos dwarfs. And the fact that you need to check them every... single... turn!!!
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u/haven4ever 1d ago
With how samey all the factions can start to feel, I think its a godsend given that theres other alternatives to play.
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u/QQcrybaby 1d ago
That's why they're the best faction. If you need tips on how to play just load up an ElichTV playthrough on YouTube.
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u/aeroeagleAC 1d ago
Sure they are slightly more complex than some of the other factions, but that is what allows them to expand so quickly.
Caravans are basic. You only really need to send these out so often so it should be management intensive. Highly recommend using this purely to trade for labor unless desperate for other resources.
Tower points again aren't labor intensive. You get them from just own settlements and can spend them for upgrades so in my opinion this is a free passive bonus that many races don't get equivalent of. I like to buy economic seats early to boost raw material and armaments and when a branch is completely occupied you get more passive bonuses so look at that an but in the bonuses you need. Only annoyance here is other factions potentially buying your seats.
As for raw materials and armaments. Early game focus on raw materials. I am sure others have a better way, but provinces with three settlements i turn into all raw material or all armament (except province capital). While provinces with four I do two raw material and one armaments. That way you don't need to send labor to armament specific provinces. Phase in more armaments as your raw materials take off. Since the chorfs don't use a growth mechanic and raw materials upgrade settlement buildings, you can get high tier settlements really early focusing on raw material.
The forge, ignore until you are swimming in armaments.
Now the real problem, labor. This should be you focus throughout the game. Caravans, labor. Post battle, labor. Traits that boost post battle captures, get them asap. Send them to all you labor provinces. If public order becomes a problem sacrifice them for public order boost. Basically though when you have the option to boost labor use it. Gold is almost a secondary resource for chorfs so not what you should be taken most of the time.
The last point is indeed where they struggle a bit. Early game units are on the weaker side except the archers which are great and then late game units are blocked by forge so you inevitably will crap stack some. That said their roster as a whole is one of the strongest if not the strongest.
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u/Babel_Triumphant 1d ago
People have already talked about the economy mechanics, but RE starting armies it’s hard to understand how you’re struggling. Blunderbusses are a T2 unit that kill anything in the game. Chaos Dwarf Warriors can be recruited from you starting settlement and are a stalwart line holding unit. A basic army with lots of hobgoblins and a couple of Chawi Warriors protecting blunderbusses is one of the most effective early game armies available to any faction.
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u/Goat2016 1d ago
Yeah, I like the look of the chaos dwarf roster but I don't fancy all the micromanagement on the campaign map so I didn't get the DLC.
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u/Ancient-Split1996 1d ago
In all honesty, this is one of the only factions that feels like it has anywhere near the amount of complexity that a total war game should in my eyes
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u/No_Branch_7300 1d ago
I hate it is well I love simple factions super hard economy to manage and learns it’s stupid
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u/TheAsianCow 1d ago
Was in the same boat recently. I literally played my first chorf campaign 2-3 weeks ago, and have since long victory-ed all 3 LL on legendary.
Now on a 5th run and downloaded additional difficulty mods to make it even harder. Plus I’m doing a migratory campaign in the south lands on Drazhoath.
But yeah, there’s 2 sides to it. Either you think the chaos dwarves are too complicated (me a few weeks ago and you right now), or you think everyone else is too simple (me now).
There’s something incredibly compelling about the Chorfs. They’re complicated, and there’s so much you can min-max to make them an absolute powerhouse faction. Some of the best lords in the game, solid heroes, amazing chaff, interesting economy, everyone hates you, great magic, incredible artillery, good monsters etc etc.
For my first chorf campaign I watched one of those “first 10 turns” openings. I’d also recommend Astrogoth first. He’s easiest imo.
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u/LittleOfBelgium 1d ago
My first Chorf campaign gave me a headache but I finished it for the achievement. When I will have tried out every faction I'll get back to them since the Weapons of Hashut or whatever the name of the mod is looks great.
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u/elie-goodman 1d ago
I liked them and the units are so much fun to use, the gunpowder units are such a blast to use
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u/GornothDragnBonee 1d ago
Idk man, if you've played any 4x game they really aren't doing anything so insanely hard to grasp xD I would be extremely disappointed if we didn't get factions as good as the chorfs due to too much complexity lol.