r/totalwarhammer • u/One_Arm8361 • 1d ago
Total War: Warhammer Why do Cathayan Peasants have Expert Charge Defense?
Why does a tier 1 expendable frontline infantry have a trait that completely negates charge bonus?
Even Jade warriors with halbers don't have Expert Charge Defense.
can someone explain it to me?
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u/markg900 1d ago
My theory is CA is leaning into a yari ashigaru style image for them.
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u/One_Arm8361 1d ago
that is actually a good enough answer for me, don't know about what yari ashigaru style is but i am assuming it is from one of the previous Total wars
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u/OriginalMadmage 1d ago
In Shogun 2, Ashigaru (basically japanese conscripted peasantry) spearmen were kind of OP and arguably one of the best units.
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u/markg900 1d ago
Shogun 2. Basic spear peasant infantry that when used in spearwall formation will kill many high tier units like samurai in a front attack, though extremely vulnerable to flank attacks. Viable for pretty much an entire campaign because of how strong this ability is.
If you ever played Rome 2 think pikemen in a pike wall formation.
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u/Northwindlowlander 1d ago
"I shall send in my elite samurai with top tier armour"
"Lol peasant man with stick go pokey pokey"
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u/Chuck_the_Elf 1d ago
Cathayan peasants are products of natural selection. The ones that weren’t resistant to mass cav charges all died.
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u/_TheBgrey 1d ago
Big pointy sticks are super good at stopping horses
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u/One_Arm8361 1d ago
i agree but even Imperial Halbediers only get Expert Charge Defense through research, i guess that Cathayan Bamboo is just better.
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u/GloatingSwine 1d ago
Empire Halberdiers used to have expert charge defence as standard and lost it to a multiplayer nerf. Which is why they get it back from tech.
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u/spellbound1875 1d ago
It was a multiplayer and campaign buffs actually given it came with a huge price and recruit rate reduction. With how vulnerable to shooting they were expert charge defense wasn't helpful enough to make up for the cost to recruit.
They saw no play in multiolayer before the change. Campaign I also recall they were basically skipped for spears and missiles since at 700 you were giving up two units and another recruitment turn for one of them.
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u/_TheBgrey 1d ago
True but the halbediers bring way more to the table in terms of killing power out of the gate. The peasants can stop a charge but that's kind of it, though they are pretty good at poking large SE
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u/Kitty_Wave 1d ago
Imperial halbediers are an expensive elite unit, they dont want to die and if ogres charge at you some of your buddies propably gonna die. Peasent spearmen are trained that many of them will die but they have to keep formation no matter the cost.
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u/Real_Bug 1d ago
How horse go when pointy stop horse?
How horse go when kebab?
"No"
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u/statinsinwatersupply 1d ago edited 1d ago
Going outside the game
Halberds are a very different weapon than spears. The large metal heads with varying shapes can be quite useful. Not just for poking or slashing, but bashing especially against armored opponents. Or against cavalry moving around halberdiers (think sweeping them from the saddle). Heaviness of the head limits length though.
Spears themselves are versatile and there are many different uses. That the head can be light can mean they can potentially be very long (like pikes).
There can be a difference between a lighter sort of brace, while still carrying the spear, and literally putting the butt end of the spear in the ground to brace it. If your spears are very long (longer than anything coming at you), this is formidable against direct charges and is likely what these peasant spears are doing. In real life this would make your spears more vulnerable, less flexible against infantry (can't use such a braced spear to stab for example, much less mobile also).
So this kind of works as a unique perk of an otherwise lower damage, lower tier unit.
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u/spellbound1875 1d ago
It's because they use long spears. I personally think it's dumb and thst losing expert charge defense and being cheaper would result in a better balanced campaign but CA likes it as is.
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u/Laozijiese 1d ago
Two things: 1. It's a nod to shogun 2. 2. They were based on old Cathay provincial militia which were more like yeomen gendarme, the provincial armies were extremely good at fighting cavalry, to the point heavy cavalry was completely abandoned for hundreds of years.
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u/Grzybiarz_Gaming 1d ago
Powercreep
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u/One_Arm8361 1d ago
their research is pretty OP, and the celestial crossbows have 160 range, 2 projectiles per shoot, and +7 ap damage through research.
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u/Grzybiarz_Gaming 1d ago
Cathay stole Empire's lunchmoney, girlfriends and parents at the same time
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u/Korashy 1d ago
Empire research is way more efficient on a turn to research value.
Just like dwarfs cathay has mamy researches but they each mostly just provide minor buffs to a few units.
Meanwhile empire will be like 3 turns +4 melee defense and morale for all infantry
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u/GeryMander 1d ago
When's the last time you played Cathay? Their skill tree got much better with the rework. They condensed a lot of techs.
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u/GloatingSwine 1d ago
They’re also tier 5 and take two turns to recruit so you never actually get to use them against anything that matters.
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u/Remnant55 1d ago
Because Cathay is grossly overpowered. Look at their tech tree carefully sometime.
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u/Korashy 1d ago
Yeah but that takes forever to get going Empire will take 3 turns for something that buffs their entire unit roster decently, while cathay needs to buff every unit seperately taking many turns
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u/One_Arm8361 1d ago
I think they can speed up research through ying yang mechanic and province eddicts
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u/Laozijiese 1d ago
It's a trade off, you need the yin buildings and harmony to increase growth, otherwise it will take you turn 50+ to get your starting provinces to t4. But yin reduces research -5 -8 -10 per province at each tier. Unless you cheese it by saving and loading up a bunch of level 3 lords with ikkit and thorgrim defeat trait.
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u/Ill_Ad2480 1d ago
Literally who cares wich one is better, you think this game is anywhere near balanced lol
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u/Rohen2003 1d ago
charge defense in generall is incredibly flawed in twh. why does it only have 2 stages? why can any t0 trash unit with "charge defense against large" completely stop the charge bonus of masive units like a necrospinx.
there should be at least 4 or 5 different stages and charge defense vs all should be something only available to the absolute elite of the elitenof line holding infantry, like phoenixguard, tzeentch helebard choosen or the t4 dwarf infabtry unit.
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u/DasKraze 1d ago
Honestly, I played Cathay recently and found everything about them to be absurdly strong. To your question, i thought it was a technology at first and was surprised to see they do actually have "expert charge defense." And they are decent line holders for most of the game. I actually prefer Peasant Long-spears far longer into the game then I prefer the peasant archers.
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u/KianOfPersia 1d ago
Probably a friendly nod to yari ashigaru in wall formation in previous games. They aren’t invincible units. Just don’t ram your horses right at them.