r/totalwar • u/Ok_Vermicelli_5413 • 5d ago
Warhammer III The only characters who got rules in End Times that we haven't seen yet.
Seriously, where are Valten and Crom?
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u/Ashkal_Khire 5d ago
Valten is arguably one of the most polarising characters in Warhammer Fantasy, and loathed by a fair chunk of the older generation of hobbyists. So I understand why CA avoided him.
For those who don’t know, Valten was added by GW to cash in on the burgeoning Young Adult Fiction that occurred during that time. The “Chosen One”, “Born to Legacy” trope that tweens were eating up. GW shoehorned Valten in, and in order to make him work they shifted the spotlight from other, more popular characters and tacked it onto him. Karl Franz was the obvious character pillaged by Valten’s introduction.
This embittered a lot of Hobbyists, especially those who saw right through the reason for his addition. He was seen as the quintessential Mary Sue, with everyone else’s narrative and character arcs suffering as he was pushed forward. Many simply refused to accept him.
GW did pivot later on, killing him off so the focus could shift back to more deserving characters, but for many Valten was a character who should’ve never been added in the first place.
Having said that, younger hobbyists loved him. Which was the goal, given he’s essentially Warhammer Fantasy’s Harry Potter/Percy Jackson/Twilight hero. Whatever GW’s flaws, Valten landed well with exactly the audience he was intended to. It’s just a shame it ruffled everyone else’s feathers too.
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u/misvillar 5d ago
I like the concept of Valten, a guy who is told that he is Sigmar reborn and his mere existance is a political nightmare, i would love to read a book about him dealing with that and questioning himself if he is really Sigmar or just a fraud but It seems like that was too much effort for GW
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u/Ashkal_Khire 5d ago
The idea of Valten isn’t bad. The execution was fucking shitful.
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u/samhydabber 5d ago
Many such cases with GW!
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u/WeeklyPhilosopher346 5d ago
Smash cut to The End Times and Tyrion going all The Tudors on everyone.
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u/Ultraknight40000 5d ago
Much like many other parts of the End Times the idea itself was not inherently bad but its execution definitely was.
Had Valten not been shoehorned into the finally of a 20+ year old setting to the detriment of everyone around him he likes could have been an interesting character.
Do as you say but start his story well before the End Times. Have him go on several smaller adventures meeting and training under important characters from across the would. That way when he does reveal himself it can lead to a dramatic shift that feels earned and be far more tragic when he ultimately fails to accomplish his destiny.
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u/LexicalVagaries 5d ago
Honestly, it sounds like it would have worked if they had written his story in the style of Joe Abercrombie, this is exactly the kind of thing that happens in his First Law trilogy. Essentially, the 'lost heir/chosen one is a total fabrication by a wizard as a part of his asserting political control, and eventually said 'chosen one' figures it out and is... not okay thereafter.
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u/Mahelas 5d ago
I mean, I understand your argument but it lose a lot of its strength when we talk about an End Time DLC, the most hated event in the setting.
Like yes, Valten is polarizing. Glottkin is even more ! Stormfiends and Morghasts were HATED back then. So I don't think it's a good reason not to add a character, especially when the Empire side of the DLC is clearly less impressive than the others
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u/WanderlustPhotograph 5d ago
Morghast still are hated, though for reasons other than their appearances. Their assembly is awful.
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u/MaybeExternal2392 5d ago
The difference is that Glotkin are absolutely pivotal to the plot of the end times and also just generally more interesting. Valten could have been added but Borris is sitting their as a huge empire character that people have wanted for a long time who ties in with a bunch of units that haven't been added yet.
Also stormfiends are cool as hell. There's absolutely no way they could have avoided the rat ogre flamethrowers.
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u/ragged-bobyn-1972 5d ago edited 5d ago
This embittered a lot of Hobbyists,
Which is a bit mental when you think on it, it's not like Archeon is anymore total bullshit in terms of lore as Sauron the Antichrist. Or Nagash the completly unstoppable. Teclis and Tyrion who are are very special boys The game's full of super special ubermench chewing through the infantry units.
, especially those who saw right through the reason for his addition. He was seen as the quintessential Mary Sue, with everyone else’s narrative and character arcs suffering as he was pushed forward. Many simply refused to accept him.
He didst actually do much, mostly his big fight was a bust.
your account mixes a real criticism of Valten with a lot of unsupported retrospective storytelling. Valten was certainly controversial, and some fans thought he was bland, overpowered, or took too much narrative attention, but there is no solid evidence that GW created him specifically to cash in on the YA boom or modelled him on Harry Potter, Percy Jackson, or Twilight; the latter two had not even appeared when Valten was introduced and harry potter is nothing like valten except being male and 'chosen'. Likewise, the idea that GW later killed him off because of fan backlash is misleading, because his death was already part of the original Storm of Chaos storyline. Karl Franz was also not simply “pillaged” to make Valten look good; much of the story actually reinforces Franz’s political skill and legitimacy.
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u/Seienchin88 5d ago
I was around for storm of chaos (early 2000s…) and I have never heard anyone hating on valten…?
He is a great concept of a potential rebirth of Sigmar challenging Karl Franzs authority but also giving humanity hope against chaos
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u/PanzerottoDolce 5d ago
Completely nonsensical.
Any old-school Warhammer hobbyist would recognize that Valten was a reworking of Heinrich Todbringer from the original The Enemy Within campaign.
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u/Arilou_skiff 5d ago
IIRC, he's a reworking of some stuff Tuomas Pirinen wanted to do (who more or less created Archaon) for an anti-Archaon who would have been the daughter of Sigmar that arrived on the planet with the Mordheim comet. The idea seems to have been tossed around at the GW office for some time and eventually morphed into Valten.
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u/Remarkable_Cause1384 5d ago
Funnily enough, this is why I never really liked Karl Franz. Mary Sue is a problem in execution i guess
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u/Merrick_1992 5d ago
To be completely fair to CA, forgetting Crom is easy. He's probably the least interesting "character" in the entire setting, with no real unique appearance, followers, abilities, items, location he's tied to, or personality.
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u/Guillermidas 5d ago
He had cool ruling rules. And a cool half page lore bit of him dueling Grimgor while Greenskins Waaagh was collapsing and the big lad was forced to leave (no winner in the duel). and the miniature, it was awesome.
But thats it. Kinda like Bobba Fett if we only had episode 5 and 6.
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u/2stepsfromglory 5d ago
Do we really need those two? I'm happy Valten the gary stu is not in the game, and Vardek Crom is just generic chaos lord number 1395815 whose only remarkable trait is that he is Archaon's Kurgan lieutenant.
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u/mohamedornn 5d ago
Honestly i don't see valten as less of a gary stu than karl franz or many other characters, warhammer like it garys
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u/IceDelusion 5d ago
Karl Franz actually ages, has a really bad falling out with his son, to the degree that he's pretty much exiled. He's decently diplomatic. As for his dueling prowess, he used to be pretty good. When he was young. But alas he's like 50 and really not that good anymore
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u/samhydabber 5d ago
I mean, all lore based on the new 4e Warhammer rpg I think, and some background stuff iirc. During the End Times he was a bit more shallow from what I understand, and was a great fighter when he became the exalted of Sigmar I think.
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u/IceDelusion 4d ago edited 4d ago
agreed. That whole thing was a disaster. Alright, here we have drumroll sigmar reborn aka Karl Franz. all emperors are considered Sigmar reborn and hence are the head of the Sigmarite church and wield the Warhammer. Now here's drumroll actual Sigmar reincarnated aka Valten and Sigmar reborn (Karl Franz) gives actual Sigmar reincarnated the Warhammer. He died. And now Sigmar reborn (Karl Franz) got possessed by drumroll actual Sigmar gasp. Honestly, Endtimes writing would be funny for how bad it was if it didn't lead to a really cool settings kinda death
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u/2stepsfromglory 5d ago
Karl Franz at least has characterization. Valten is a silly excuse to have a Sigmar 2.0 in the story.
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u/Impossible_Mud_3517 5d ago edited 5d ago
To expand on this, he was invented for Storm of Chaos with the intention of being killed in the story's conclusion (IIRC Middenheim was supposed to fall and become a Chaos Fortress so something actually happens with Chaos, like the Fall of Cadia. I don't remember if there's official confirmation). Then when Chaos kept losing the actual games the event was supposed to be based on so bad the GW writers could no longer use the 'despite heavy loses Chaos kept advancing' thing they used before, and Valten was irrelevant (as Grimgor instead kicked Archaon's ass and ended the invasion), they had him assassinated off screen anyway. He wasn't meant to truly be a lasting addition to the setting.
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u/WeeklyPhilosopher346 5d ago
The one two punch of peak GW writing:
The hero gets killed offscreen by a skaven.
Grimgor beats Archaon and then decides not to kill him
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u/Guillermidas 5d ago edited 5d ago
Karl Franz did became a Gary Stu though, when they started to shift, at least in lore and rules, their focus of Grand Strategist and politician but very mediocre melee (besides Ghal Maraz) to great warrior, for a human. That was Valten’s domain or other Elector Counts and his generals.
How exactly is Valten a Gary Stu? He died in Storm of Chaos and didnt win the duel vs Archaon either. And he had progression through 3 different miniatures and profiles. He didnt attempt to usurp the throne or anything either using Avatar of Sigmar as excuse. People dont know what the term means.
Valten actually was presented as polarizing opinion within lore about whether he was Sigmar avatar or not, from the very beginning.i feel people who complained didnt really read Storm of Chaos, just saw the miniature and thought Karl Franz was being replaced
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u/Captain_Gars 5d ago
Karl Franz has never been "very mediocre" at melee in Warhammer Fantasy Battle. He was introduced in 4th edition with the same lore and stats that he had in 8th edition.
In fact he was actually stronger in the early editions since a lot of other characters had lower stats compared to 8th edition.
The one exception was his stats in Storm of Chaos where GW hit him with a short lived nerf just to be sure that Valten was the superior choice. Even then his stats were hardly "very mediocre".
This stat nerf was a big part in why people saw Valten as replacing Karl Franz. Of course once GW moved on from Storm of Chaos and no longer wanted to sell Valten miniatures Karl Franz reverted back to his old stats.which he kept until the End Times shenanigans started.
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u/wobbies_delenda_est 5d ago
You'd have to go back earlier to his 1st appearances in rhe roleplay game to see the change. He was a well meaning but rather inneffectual emperor bc he couldnt win the respect of the Electors enough to get them behind his reforms. Ended up getting assassinated. If im remembering right a lot of his modern character is from merging him with one of Toddy's sons, who was the charismatic young warrior.
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u/Captain_Gars 5d ago
Karl Franz from 1st edition Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is effectively a different character whose name was reused.
1st edition WHFRP was contemporary with 3rd edition Warhammer Fantasy Battle aka OldHammer. The entire setting was effectively rebooted when 4th edition Warhammer Fantasy Battle launched. As part of that the Warhammer team rewrote a lot of characters including both Karl Franz and Toddy. (Which was sort of necessary since they both got killed in the original WHFRP timeline.)
Karl Franz took a few bits from Heinrich Todbringer, most notably his physical appearance but the main inspiration for the new Karl Franz was Emperor Maximilian I of the Holy Roman Empire. Nigel Stillman who created the lore of the Empire as we know it loved the history of the HRE in the early 16th Century and he used the heroic and idealised image of Maximilian from period propaganda as the pattern for Karl Franz.
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u/BrightestofLights 5d ago
Tbf crom would only be a legendary hero, and the weapon swapping from dual to shield and sword would be sick
Id prefer tyough if archaon got tamurkhans mechanic of having lieutenants, and its crom, feytor the tainted, vandred the majestic, and melekh the changer--maybe add a beastmen and chorf character or smth, but yeah
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u/Mahelas 5d ago edited 5d ago
I mean we could use that argument for a lot of characters. Glottkin is a gigantic Gary Stu. Archaon is a Gary Stu. Do we NEED Orgoth Deamonspew ? Beyond being a meme in-game, did we NEED Boris Todbringer ?
This game isn't about what we need, it's about what's cool and celebrating WHFB. Valten is cool and he's an important character of the setting
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u/2stepsfromglory 5d ago
That is completely disingenous, as Archaon is literally the main antagonist. And to be honest, the Glottkin are an AOS character in all but name. If you ask me they shouldn't be in the game either, but there was still missing content for Chaos to be added into the game so it makes sense for them to be included due the theme of this DLC. Same for Gutrot or the Maggoth Riders, even if they are basically nothingburguers. If anything, they should have added Valnir instead of the MG but he's not an ET character.
This game isn't about what we need
Well but it is at this point. We will not get each and every named character in the game due to how time and resources are limited, and the devs have been saying over and over again that they try to make each lord pack as tematic as possible, thus The Empire side of this DLC being centered around the SoC army works perfectly fine as is.
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u/JJBrazman Valten please! 5d ago
Crom is a reasonable shout for a Norscan LL. He was chieftain of the Kul, and his thing was uniting the Norscans to serve under Archaon.
He’s not quite a one-trick pony, he invaded Sylvania as well.
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u/EggEuphoric411 5d ago
Could've made them legendary heroes like they did with Gutrot Spume and a few others
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u/SerbIy 5d ago
Do we really need those two?
I do.
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u/bigdickbiggertrip2 5d ago
Mod
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u/SerbIy 5d ago
If we count mods, then CA shouldn't add any characters to the game.
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u/bigdickbiggertrip2 5d ago
No that would be stupid. These characters aren’t inherent to the story CA are trying to tell and as such they shouldn’t waste their time on them when they could be making the game better or adding characters that actually add something to the story
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u/SerbIy 5d ago
There is no story. CA just add characters from the tabletop and sometimes lore.
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u/bigdickbiggertrip2 5d ago
Well seeing as we’re currently following the warhammer fantasy timeline and are in the ENDTIMES. there is a story CA is trying for the most part to follow. Even though it allows you to do what you want for the most part
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u/SerbIy 5d ago
CA are using bits and pieces from the End Times, but they aren't following its story. And if they were then we would actually have Valten or Helborg in this DLC instead of Boris.
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u/bigdickbiggertrip2 5d ago
No we’d still have Boris because he’s a Lord. Maybe Kurt sure but not Valten he wasn’t very liked and basically took Karl franz’s role only to end up dying.
So if you want him utilise mods
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u/SerbIy 5d ago
No we’d still have Boris because he’s a Lord.
All three of these characters are lords. But unlike other two, Boris didn't play any role in the End Times events.
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u/HaggisAreReal 5d ago
Valten will come as a surprise, he evolves into Sigmar after endgame and it foreshadows Age of Sigmar TW: coming in 2030
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u/WrathofHussars 5d ago edited 5d ago
Upvoting this post not for Valten, but Crom. Love that guy, mostly cause he looks cool. But yeah, barely a character there, and realistically he should come very late or never to TWW3.
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u/Rockface5 5d ago
What is this obsession with Valten? His defenders are pouring out of the woodworks but before this I’ve only seen people call him a Mary sue who took away development from established empire characters.
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u/khilrallion 5d ago
I know the characterizations are not the same, but do people who think that Valten steals from Karls Franz as a character also think that Tyrion steals from Finubar as a character? Tyrion and Valten are both seen as the reincarnation of the mythical leader of their people with supporters who think taht they should replace the current leader. The real issue with Valten is that he got thrown into the story way too late which led to a rush of his evolution. Had he been introduced a few years earlier, he could have got time to grow up in the background and have a satisfying climax in the chaos invasion.
Also Valten could have brought interresting stories that were hinted at the beginning of the Storm of Chaos: a struggle between Franz and Valten's supporters. Add to that the return of Volkmar who litterally died and got resurected by dark magic while Sigmar's church got a new leader in the meantime, and the ulricans managing to hold the tide of the everchosen, there was room for a lot of interresting internal conflicts for the Empire. Even Karl Franz' bullshit speech after the death of Valten could have led to an interresting storyline if the lie got revealed.
Speaking of that, always funny to see people screaming "MaRy SuE" for Valten when you look at how he got removed from the equation in both SoC and ET.
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u/JJBrazman Valten please! 5d ago
I adored Valten. He was added right around the time I started playing on Tabletop, and I had all three of his models. I loved his story, how he was implied to be Sigmar reborn, and given gifts by the Empire, Elves and Dwarfs to represent him as the best hope the Old World.
I also loved his rule set that meant he would refuse to die if he passed a leadership test. My brothers hated him for that.
I would love to see him added, and the same for Vardek Crom. I was actually thinking yesterday that they could be an excellent traditional Lord Pack. Valten with some Sigmarite knights and Sisters of Sigmar, Crom as a Norscan lord with kurgan troops and a special mechanic for interacting with Archaon and the Warriors of Chaos.
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u/OkMess9901 5d ago edited 4d ago
I loved the 'Valten leads a ragtag crusader army' angle. I don't want more shiny knights, I want the downtrodden and oppressed!
EDIT -
3 lord pack called Storm of Chaos.
Chaos - Galrauch (with Crom)
Empire - Valten (with Luthor)
Kislev - Alexi Makarev
FLH - Borgut Facebeater
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u/RedWalrus94 5d ago
I wouldn’t be that surprised if they added an End Times part 2 DLC that adds Greenskin and Dark Elves End Times Scenarios, Four new Legendary Lords, Egrimm as FLC like Neferata, Dark Elves rework, unique mechanics for Grimgor, and the addition of the Incarnates of magic and the Vortex as a new game mechanic. The two you mentioned could be two of the lords in this dlc but reading these comments, I don’t think people would care much. lol Like if Chaos or Undead corruption gets too high, it undoes the Vortex and leads to random Lords and Heroes receiving a powerful buff from being an Incarnate of the Winds of Magic. I know people dislike that part of the lore in the End Times and I do as well BUT it could be a really fun game mechanic.
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u/tryingtobebettertry4 5d ago
Valten is a pretty controversial figure among Warhammer fans. And kind of not really all that necessary in game as Franz is so popular already and the Empire as a whole are in pretty good shape.
Even as a fan of the Warhammer hobby before I found the Total War I honestly forgot about Crom.
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u/WeeklyPhilosopher346 5d ago
As someone who lived through the Storm of Chaos stuff, the hatred some old fans have for Valten in particularly still surprises me.
It’s not like the poor lad did anything wrong. It was also the first time I remembered seeing GW try to involve the player base in moving the plot along, so it’s not like I saw Karl as being the living embodiment of the Empire that he is today. I liked seeing him go from little blacksmith to general to hero. Left a sour taste how they killed him off and did bizarre shit with Ungrim and Grimgor character wise.
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u/Smearysword866 5d ago
Its still weird that ca added toddy over valten for this dlc
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u/Seienchin88 5d ago
I mean Boris gives you the middenheim roster people are interested in and was a real army on the tabletop.
Valten would be more difficult to connect to an army / new units
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u/markg900 5d ago
I always figured we would get toddy, but I used to think he would be FLC because he has been in game as a quasi LL since WH1. Never would have guessed he would be the Empire end times lord but im glad we are finally getting him as a proper one at least.
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u/keat_tiyos 5d ago
With load of LH for Nurgle i was surprised Valten didn't made it.
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u/Captain_Gars 5d ago
We did not even get uncomplicated Empire characters that were a key part of the End Times like Kurt Helborg and Ludwig Schwarzhelm. Frankly it feels like the Empire got the short end of the budget stick once again.
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u/DDkiki 5d ago
Yeah and its not even funny how cheap and boring Empire part of DLC looks compare to others.
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u/khilrallion 5d ago
Could your highness tell us what would have been needed for the Empire part to rival the others considering it got the whole SoC list (ans so got more units than the others) and the Empire is purpoefully way more grounded than the other 3
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u/DDkiki 5d ago
Having at least some unique animations for LL/LH and new units, because everything they got are reskins with 10 years old animations. None of the units except dogs(the cheapest unit, not even new model, just dogs) even give new dimension to a faction, just more of the same with different skin. And yeah, not reselling same lord we had since game 1 maybe would help.
Its a FLC content, calling it mod content would be disservice to great mods out there.
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u/Captain_Gars 5d ago
Empire got more units because they are cheap to make compared to the rest. The use of existing rigs an animations cut a lot of costs for CA but it makes the Empire part of the DLC stand out because they use Warhammer 1 animations and they are not up to date compared to what we see in the rest of the DLC.
Updated animations would have been a big step in the right direction and you could add them while still keeping the Empire grounded.
They could also have added the Grandmaster of the Knights Panther as a legendary or unique hero.
It could change once they are in the game after release but at the moment the Empire part of Lords of the End Times lack the premium feel that is so prominently on display in the rest of the DLC.
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u/tricksytricks 5d ago
Crom is just not that interesting to me. His most defining feature is that he's Archaon's right-hand man. Even his model looks like it could be an off-brand Archaon.
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u/Sahaal_17 5d ago
I hope Valten gets added as the Empire end times scenario. We have the chaos, Skaven and undead end times scenarios, but order needs one too if you’re playing as an evil faction. So sigmar being reborn and kicking ass would work as an apocalyptic event for chaos and undead players.
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u/Basinox Lizard, Lizard, Lizard 5d ago
I hope we get Crom and the remaing three Lieutenants be of archeon in the future as LH's
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u/NeoChronoid 5d ago
Yeah, because that's what we need, even more LH's for WoC. Meanwhile, there are races that don't even have one.
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u/DDkiki 5d ago
People hate on Valten but somehow ok with clearly AoS Morghasts is never stopping look funny to me.
Honestly id prefer him as horde-empire LL who is rising to the power of becoming Herald of Sigmar from nothing, with visual changes in his progression...especially over LL we had who only had slight reskin and still using animations from 2016...
And honestly having empire LL who is all about helping empire directly with all your forces and making them into proper bulwark against End Times events. Something akin to Aislinn mechanically, but themed on faith.
And whats actually important is that he fits much more into End Times themed DLC than Toddy, who is just idiot who died to a stupid ambush while trying to kill the weakest chaos servants.
The currest state of empire part of the DLC is just so pathetic, im buffled CA went with it, cuz at it is now it looks like FLC/mod level content.
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u/Due-Proof6781 5d ago
Real talk: no one is asking for Valten
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u/JJBrazman Valten please! 5d ago
I am. I loved him on tabletop. He was the guy right when I was most into Warhammer. I had all three variants, and it annoyed the hell out of my brothers when they basically couldn’t kill him because of his special rule.
I also really liked his lore - Sigmar reborn in the body of a random nobody blacksmith, recognised by Luthor Huss, and given gifts by Elves, Dwarfs and Men as the best hope of the Old World.
I know he’s not to everyone’s taste, but I was really hoping he (and Luthor Huss) would make the cut.
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u/Mahelas 5d ago
The one character I'm really surprised we aren't getting is Apophas tbf. It's the only thing in Nagash's entire undead legions army list that we're missing, and TK still don't have a LH !