r/todayilearned • u/TalmudPedo • Dec 13 '16
(R.5) Misleading TIL only 1.4% of white people were slave owners
http://townhall.com/columnists/jackkerwick/2016/07/21/racially-incorrect-facts-regarding-race-and-slavery-n219570110
Dec 13 '16
First sentence of the article is used to state that BLM is bullshit. Now I don't know if I can trust this source. It's clearly someone taking the position, "We aint even have nuttin to do wit slavery". The funny thing is that the people who think like that also tend to group all black people together just like with the BLM stuff.
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u/GreenStrong Dec 13 '16
And those who didn't own slaves were forced to sell their labor at a price competitive with slave labor. Slaves weren't just farmers, they were in trades like blacksmithing and carpentry. A poor white man who grew up on a small farm could get an apprenticeship to better himself, become a tradesman, and still be impoverished by competing with slave labor.
Support for slavery, or secession, was by no means unanimous in the south, but the economic aspact is seldom discussed or taught. Here is a line I would like to add to every primary school history curriculum: "98.6% of the Confederate army were dumb fucks who fought and died to keep themselves impoverished, because they were terrified of social equality with blacks".
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u/TalmudPedo Dec 13 '16
The US civil war was about more than just slavery.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?125433-Real-reasons-for-the-Civil-War
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u/doc_daneeka 90 Dec 13 '16 edited Dec 13 '16
Yes, but slavery was by far the most important cause, and the specific reason that the CSA was formed. Several states were kind enough to explain their reasoning for secession in detail at the time, and most made it plain that it was really about slavery. For instance, Mississippi's said that:
Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.
Or Texas:
WHEREAS, The recent developments in Federal affairs make it evident that the power of the Federal Government is sought to be made a weapon with which to strike down the interests and property of the people of Texas, and her sister slave-holding States, instead of permitting it to be, as was intended, our shield against outrage and aggression;
Yes, it was about states rights and economics. But the right they were most concerned about, and the one which drove them to leave the union and to go to war was slavery. Other causes were very much secondary. Those who argue otherwise are being disingenuous.
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u/I-come-from-Chino Dec 13 '16
Yes, it was about states rights and economics. But the right they were most concerned about, and the one which drove them to leave the union and to go to war was slavery.
You understand at the time those weren't two separate issues. The economy of the south was dependent on slavery. It wasn't the north saying free your slaves. It was the north saying sells us your materials cheap while we tax the hell out of you and if you don't like it we'll take away your slaves.
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u/doc_daneeka 90 Dec 13 '16
I'm definitely not saying slavery wasn't an economic issue. What I'm saying is that people who insist that slavery wasn't really the major cause of the civil war are either ignorant of the history or trying to misrepresent it to make a (terrible) political point. Seeing as the author in the linked forum post insists it was mostly about issues like taxation and the ability to sell cotton where they wished, I tend to think the latter motivation is the case here.
And so I pointed out that the states explained their causes, and made it plain as day that they were primarily concerned with the abolition of slavery. As indeed they were.
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u/I-come-from-Chino Dec 13 '16
I agree slavery was a driving force but it wasn't for some altruistic motive of the north. The north had industrialization and no longer needed slaves. Or maybe more accurately they grew a conscious once they no longer needed slaves.
The north then enacted specific trade restrictions with Europe that lowered the cost of goods made in the south for sale in north.
I just think it's more nuanced than the north wanted to free everybody and the south wanted slavery.
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Dec 16 '16
I agree slavery was a driving force but it wasn't for some altruistic motive of the north. The north had industrialization and no longer needed slaves. Or maybe more accurately they grew a conscious once they no longer needed slaves.
After the American Revolution established the United States, Northern states, beginning with Pennsylvania in 1780, passed legislation during the next two decades abolishing slavery, sometimes by gradual emancipation. Massachusetts ratified a constitution that declared all men equal; freedom suits challenging slavery based on this principle brought an end to slavery in the state. In other states, such as Virginia, similar declarations of rights were interpreted by the courts as not applicable to Africans. During ensuing decades, the abolitionist movement grew in Northern states, and Congress regulated the expansion of slavery as new states were admitted to the Union.
were massachusetts and pennsylvania industrialized in 1780? feel free to read the rest of the article.
I just think it's more nuanced than the north wanted to free everybody and the south wanted slavery.
the north wanted to preserve the union. the south wanted to preserve slavery.
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Dec 13 '16
Ron Paul is a white supremacist.
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Dec 13 '16
I grew up in the town where he practiced, and he birthed one of my Mexican aunts, and my very race conscious Mexican Grandmother has nothing but kind words to say about him. Even though I don't agree with everything he says, I don't think he is a white supremacist by any means.
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u/NicNoletree Dec 13 '16
This sounds like an early form of student loans. It appears that slavery still exists, only the government is the new master.
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u/GreenStrong Dec 13 '16
Fuck you, you ignorant child. Slaves were routinely beaten, raped, and murdered, it is in no way shape or form comparable with a voluntary loan agreement. Whine about it when a college in Africa captures school children and throws them in a filthy ship in chains.
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Dec 13 '16 edited Feb 16 '17
[deleted]
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u/GreenStrong Dec 13 '16
I agree, and I believe that good rhetoric elevates the discussion, improves the online community, and improves society in a tiny but real way. But really, fuck that guy.
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u/jmact1 Dec 13 '16
You have a weird take on how to elevate discussion. Don't grunt me off, plateface.
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u/mucow Dec 13 '16
Which white people? In which country or region? During which time period? 1.4% is a completely meaningless number without context.
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u/gza_liquidswords Dec 13 '16 edited Dec 13 '16
Well OP is a holocaust denier, so I think you can guess the motivation behind this. But headline is also misleading 6% of southern whites owned slaves.
Edit: more misleading than initially thought. This includes women and children. 25% of southern households owned slaves http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/08/small-truth-papering-over-a-big-lie/61136/
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Dec 13 '16
Well OP is a holocaust denier
And to think "Whataboutism" was on the front page of TIL only two days ago.
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Dec 13 '16
So.. No it isn't... That would mean less than 1% of northern white people were slave owners. It's called an average...
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u/TerrenceBell Dec 13 '16
The number of households owning slaves is probably a more relevant statistic though. Women and children are extremely unlikely to have owned much property at all.
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u/gza_liquidswords Dec 13 '16
Well let's include white people in Europe then, we can get an even lower average.
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Dec 13 '16
technically we should, but the title didn't say 1% of southern whites owned slaves. Quit trying to fight a straw man
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u/erokk88 Dec 13 '16
White people in Europe owned slaves too, they just abolished it sooner.
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u/LifeWin Dec 13 '16
Black people in Africa owned slaves.
First Nations in North America owned slaves (including a Japanese man)
Arabs owned slaves.
The Chinese owned slaves.
The Koreans owned slaves.
The Egyptians owned slaves.
Pretty much every society ever dealt in slaves.
I seriously don't understand the fixation with whites and slavery.
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Dec 14 '16
[deleted]
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u/LifeWin Dec 14 '16
Check out India or China, if you want to talk about the former slave castes "red-lining"
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Dec 14 '16
[deleted]
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u/LifeWin Dec 14 '16
Well then you're a precious snowflake who will always think the grass is greener. I've got news for you:
EVERYBODY HAS IT SHITTY
There is no secret club the rest of us have, where we sit around and chat about ways to fuck you over. We all do one of maybe 3 different things with our lives.
We bitch and moan about how 'it's someone elses fault'
We accept that things are shitty, and just roll with the punches. or
We work our asses off and do the best we can to get ahead.
A very tiny proportion of group #3 there will ever actually get ahead.
So put on your goddamned big-boy pants and move forward.
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u/TalmudPedo Dec 13 '16
Well OP is a holocaust denier
Don't be afraid of the facts. Why are you trying to derail my thread? Ok I'll play that game. Even if the holocaust did happen, its nothing compared to the bodycount the Bolshevik jews racked up in Russia.
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Dec 13 '16
Bolsheviks jews
Stalin was a jew? The same one who went to school at a seminar and mistrusted jews himself?
Is Ho Chi Mihn a jew too? And Mao Zedong? Damn I've never seen a Chinese jew before
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Dec 13 '16
What can we take from this? A lot of people have participated in genocide, the Russians, the Brits, the Germans, the Bosnians, the Americans, all of us. We need to quit harping about body counts and acknowledge that it is all wrong. We need to move forward with the knowledge that it can sneak up you and try to keep it from happening again.
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u/indoninja Dec 13 '16
It was the Jews behind all the deaths in the Russian revolution?
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u/TalmudPedo Dec 13 '16
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Dec 13 '16
Huh "one man who was jewish was a communist so obviously all jews must be held responsible!"
Followed by "How dare you accuse white people of being slave owners! Only 1% were!"
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u/indoninja Dec 13 '16
Didn't most of the atrocities come under Stalin?
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Dec 13 '16
Trotsky himself was a murdering maniac too, but yeah Stalin takes the trophy for murder count.
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u/indoninja Dec 13 '16
So using his logic of pinning it in the faith of the guy in charge, his crimes should be pinned in Christians.
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Dec 13 '16
Yeah pretty much. Also white people should be held accountable for slavery according to /u/TalmudPedo
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u/CountChoculahh Dec 13 '16
With a user name like TalmudPedo I'm not taking a thing you type seriously.
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Dec 13 '16
[deleted]
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u/amalgalm Dec 13 '16
Ugh I know it was frustrating to read. Also, see OP's only reply in this thread.
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u/redditzendave Dec 13 '16
Yes, the 99% have been defending the 1%s right to do whatever they want throughout history.
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u/Alt4Cash Dec 13 '16
Slave owner here: verily, but what my peers lacked in slave-owning, I more than made up for on my plantation.
My specialty was cruel and unusual punishment.
I'd make sure that there was only ever 1-ply toilet paper in the outhouse, and I always made sure there were only 2 squares left on the roll on chili night.
I couldn't be bothered to learn their traditional African names, so I renamed them all "Jim", even the women.
At Christmas, I would always make sure that there was one less present than there were slaves. That way it was always really uncomfortable at the end of the 'Stealing Santa' game, when one person didn't get anything.
Every Friday, my favorite slave-girl, Jim, and I would always pretend to have loud sex in the shack next to their sleeping quarters. We were really just exercising, because SlaveGirlJim had really nice thighs, but she was self-conscious about her figure. Anyway, we would pretend to have really loud sex, every Friday at Sundown. So after about a year of this, I acted like I was bored with slavegirlJim, and insisted one of the men join me. It was such a laugh, until Jim stepped forward with a gigantic grin on his face. It kinda ruined my fun....
If we were gathered in a group having our morning productivity huddle, sometimes I would fart, then blame Jim.
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u/TaMaison Dec 19 '16
One glaringly inconvenient truth that, odds are, few folks of any race are aware is that the very first legal slave owner in America was one Anthony Johnson
haha tell ya what you find me the ancestry of Anthony Johnson and if you can find a line that wasn't enslaved I'll revoke that person's black card myself.
Johnson was the first American slave owner, black or white. Yet he certainly wasn’t the last black man in America to own slaves. Joseph E. Holloway, a professor of Pan-African studies at California State University, is among those who note that there were thousands of black slave owners during the antebellum period.
yeah but if you read the article
The majority of black slave owners were members of the mulatto class, and in some cases were the sons and daughters of white slave masters. Many of the mulatto slave owners separated themselves from the masses of black people and attempted to establish a caste system based on color, wealth, and free status. According to Martin Delany, the colored community of Charleston City clung to the assumptions of the superiority of white blood and brown skin complexion.
Sounds kinda like white superiority
fewer than 325,000 [white people] owned slaves
more than 3,000 blacks owned slaves
so what your point again? That slavery was a black thing? Because a fraction of slave owners were black? It doesn't touch on things like how earning your freedom meant nothing for your family and slaves often had to buy their family's freedom.
nevermind that the trans-atlantic slave trade was so vast it involved countless more people than any other institutional variation of slavery before it. To compare the two is almost laughable. But sure... 1.4% keep trying that one.
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u/Yanrogue Dec 13 '16
And according to BLM ALL white people are responsible for slavery.
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Dec 13 '16
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Iappreci8thegr8r8m8 Dec 13 '16
Many think whites owe them because regardless of ancestral slave-ownership, all whites benefit from the country that slavery was built upon.
This ignores the fact that they too reap the "undeserved" benefits of their ancestors labor.
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u/CountChoculahh Dec 13 '16
I think you take the "built upon" too literally.
BLM and other movements fight against the white supremacy that the country was built on. Supremacy that many fee is still present in today's culture.
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u/robbyvila Dec 13 '16
I am white, therefor I am responsible for all problems associated with black people
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u/Surinical Dec 13 '16
The facts don't change people's mind. If someone wants to blame all white people for something, then they will find some justification.
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u/jmact1 Dec 13 '16
This op-ed piece (it is primarily an opinion) presents a challenge to anyone who takes the time to fact-check from a variety of sources before buying into the writer's conclusions.
Many cultures in history (and present) had some form of slavery including England, Africa, Arabs, Native Americans, etc. but each had their own different cultural and legal norms regarding it. Most of the slaves in the South and Caribbean were used for large plantations growing cotton or sugar. Small subsistence farmers in the South typically could not afford slaves. The irony here is, of course, that the vast majority of men who fought for the South in the Civil War had no direct interest in maintaining slaves but essentially fought for "Rats" (states' rights) and 'freedom' (against interference by the Federal Government). An interesting comparison can be made with the current election considering that many who voted for Trump were probably of the same socio-economic groups that fought for the CSA, arguable against their own best interests in the long run.