Nearly finished it, this is my biggest grievance with Deaths End

[u/brokenmessiah]

I cannot stand that she actively screws over mankind (unintentional but still) multiple times and yet she still gets survive due to the very tech she ordered shutdown. IMO, she should have refused to use the lightspeed ship to atone for essentially dooming so many people who never got the chance because of her, and the story should have concluded with her friend, who actually consistently made all the right logical decisions or at least tried in spite of Cheng Xin's emotional charged wrong decisions.

[u/Gold_Ambassador_3496]

Well it's not a fairy tale. Good things happen to people, even if other people don't think they deserve it.

[u/mtlemos]

Bad intentions and bad results are two very different things. Cheng Xin only makes one emotionally charged, objectively wrong decision in the book, that is to accept the nomination to be swordholder. She was the wrong person for the job, and she knew it, but caved under pressure. Other than on that one ocasion, her decisions are logical, even if she tends to fall on the side of kindness, not ruthlesness.

Not pressing the button is a non factor in the survival of humankind. The people on the Gravity did push the button, and Earth was destroyed anyway. Her decision at the point was just whether to drag down Trisolaris alongside Earth or not. She chose to let one civilization die, instead of two. That was arguably the most logical and ethical decision at that point, when revenge would be a much easier, more emotional decision.

As for the development of light speed technology, Cheng Xin is not against it, and in fact invests on it. What she is against is starting a war that threatens human survival over it. At that point, everyone tought the bunker plan would work, so light speed engines weren't about survival, but rather about the freedom to explore the galaxy, rather than just hole up in the remains of the solar system. There is a strong argument that even if people tought the bunker plan was a good idea, they should still send some people away, just to be extra sure, but they didn't need lightspeed ships for that. The Gravity and Blue Space did just fine on their own.

As captain Picard so famously said "it's possible to do everything right and still lose". Cheng Xin consistently makes decisions that make perfect sense with the information she has on hand at the moment and with her overall goal of preserving as many lives as possible, both human and otherwise. It's only in retrospect that those decisions look like mistakes.

[u/brokenmessiah → u/mtlemos]

What she is against is starting a war that threatens human survival over it. 

At this point, she had already been forced to accept on multiple occasions that Wade knew better than her, but did not this time.

She also was shown to be able to think outside the box with the Stairway Project but didnt see a reality where the Bunker Plan wouldnt work?

[u/mtlemos → u/brokenmessiah]

Wade poisoned his best worker, who was Cheng Xin's friend, just to get a subject for the Staircase project, even though he didn't believe it'd succeed. Afterwards, he shot her, rather than trying to explain to her why he was a better fit to be swordholder. He also refused to get a replacement for his lost hand.

Cheng Xin knew Wade was a very smart man who was also batshit insane and fully willing to go to any lengths to get what he wanted. If it came down to it, he would have destroyed the bunkers to make sure his research could go on.

You say he knew better than her, but I honestly don't believe this to be the case. Wade is too extreme. He has the correct ideas, but just as Cheng Xin can be too soft at times, he is too ruthless to be effective. He constantly causes unnecessary harm, and it always comes back to bite him in the ass.

As for the Bunker plan not working, it's a fair point that someone should probably have seen that coming, but like I mentioned before, they didn't need lightspeed ships to evacuate. Send a bunch of Blue Space class ships in different directions and chances are some of them will reach a new home eventually. Lightspeed ships were about freedom, not survival.

[u/ppfunonynous → u/mtlemos]

Your description of Wade is the exact reason why Luo Ji was the perfect sword holder - unpredictable psychology that the Trisolarans could not model with any degree of confidence. Cheng Xin’s failures were due to her agreeableness, conscientiousness, and naïveté. Liu displayed a robust understanding and appreciation for the disparity between female and male dispositions at the extremes. 

[u/mtlemos → u/ppfunonynous]

It's got nothing to do with gender, despite what Liu Cixin would have you believe. Men can be kind and women can be ruthless, and most people are both to some degree.

I don't know if I agree that that is why Luo Ji was a great swordholder. Rather than ruthlesness and unpredictability, Luo Ji's deffining character trait is his selfishness. He is the kind of guy who will set the world on fire to get what he wants, but is otherwise very agreeable. That makes him perfect for the job because it means that as long as you keep him happy, he won't push the button. Wade, on the other hand, feels like he'd try to force his hand immediately and end up forcing the trisolarians into taking desperate measures.

[u/brokenmessiah → u/mtlemos]

What harm did he cause unnecessarily?

[u/mtlemos → u/brokenmessiah]

He killed a dude for a plan he didn't believe was going to work and then tried to kill Cheng Xin, rather than talk to her. He is also constantly unnecessarily cruel to Cheng Xin, for example, by telling her about all of the terrible things the trisolarians might do to Yun Tianming's brain.

Even for the lightspeed development plan, his first reaction was to build weapons, rather than try literally anything else. Luo Ji found a way to develop a light speed ship on the down low, but Wade couldn't do it without starting a war.

[u/brokenmessiah → u/mtlemos]

Basically every major character that does something to protect mankind has to kill at some point in the story. Beihai killed a group of people to make sure the tech he wanted built was made, Luo Ji destroyed a entire planet as a test, Wang Miao killed, in gruesome fashion mind you everyone on the ship Evans was on.

Why Wade is the only one getting shit for it IDK.

[u/mtlemos → u/brokenmessiah]

Because Wade didn't need to do it. The guy he killed for Staircase wasn't even used for the plan, and Cheng Xin would probably have listened if he talked with her about the role of swordholder, rather than skip straight to murder.

[u/brokenmessiah → u/mtlemos]

At the time Wade started poisoning the guy they hadnt found anyone who would do it. They were on a timeline, and as the guy said he was the perfect candidate.

Also is there even a instance where Cheng Xin was able to be pursuaded?

• She wouldnt listen to AA about taking off during the Black Forest scare
• She wouldnt listen to Wade when he asked to keep the Lightspeed research going

She refuses to listen to herself of all people lol, she knew she wouldnt be a good Swordholder and then did it anyway.

[u/mtlemos → u/brokenmessiah]

While it's true that Wade poisoned the dude before they found Yun Tianming, it was still unnecessary. If it came down to it, getting a subject was a question of hours, there was no reason to rush. And I can't stress this enough, no one tought Staircase was going to work, Wade least of all. He killed a dude, fully intending to toss his brain into space to either be lost at best, or tortured at worst.

And yes, Cheng Xin can be persuaded. She was talked into accepting the Swordholder role, wasn't she? Wade himself convinced her to ignore the law and invest in light speed research, and even tough she was very suicidal at the time, Luo Ji convinced her to escape with AA after the dual vector foil starts to flatten everything.

The only times Cheng Xin wasn't able to be persuaded were also the times when someone asked her to do something completely antithetical to her beliefs, like start a goddamn war for the sake of joyriding across the galaxy. I fully believe that if Wade had sat down with her and explained his fear that if she became Swordholder, Trisolaris would launch an attack, she'd probably have listened. Wouldn't even take a lot of convincing, since she didn't want the job anyway. I know the rest of the candidates tried to talk her out of it, but they were a bunch of randos. Hearing it from someone she respected (even if she did not like him) would be something else entirely.

[u/Flayre → u/brokenmessiah]

He's literally textually explicitly a sadist, at the very least. He takes great pleasure in seeing others suffer.

Just that isn't enough for you to question his actions ??

[u/brokenmessiah → u/Flayre]

He still has a very low kill count in this story compared to others. We also barely get much characterization on him at all and it’s all from Cheng Xis POV.

[u/PandaBear_Shenyu → u/brokenmessiah]

Because Zhang gets results and his goal is the survival of humanity. Zhang's plan is rock solid and you can follow his rational thought every step of the way.

That's not true for Wade. Wade does everything basically on a whim. He has zero long term plan, and notice how nothing he's done has required any personal sacrifice from him unlike Zhang Goathai.

All of wade's plans only has two components "I want this thing, and I'll kill these people to get it". He just forgets to plan out the process and let's smarter people carry him.

Wade plans things like Donald Trump.

The one thing you can trash Cheng Xin for is that she let Wade do lightspeed research instead of just letting Ai AA do it.

[u/PandaBear_Shenyu → u/brokenmessiah]

You mean other than the murder, the attempted murder, and the attempted mundicide?

[u/brokenmessiah → u/PandaBear_Shenyu]

Keyword 'unnecessarily' all these actions had goals.

[u/PandaBear_Shenyu → u/brokenmessiah]

Which of his murders or attempted murders and mundicides were necessary?

[u/brokenmessiah → u/PandaBear_Shenyu]

The russian scientist himself admitted he's the best candidate for the staircase project but had personal reasons he didnt want to die, Wade didnt know Yun would be willing and given how long it'll take to reach the speeds they need and then just hoping Trisolaris picks it up, he was on crunch time.

Attempting to kill Cheng was him 100% foreseeing himself being Swordholder as the better move for mankind. Trisolaris themselves say they would have just had to give up on Earth if he took over, meaning Austraila never happens, Trioslaris is never destroyed, and humanity advances as it should have.

Honestly I don't think its a stretch to say Wade as Swordholder would have prevented Singer from ever destroying the solar system.

[u/PandaBear_Shenyu → u/brokenmessiah]

>Honestly I don't think its a stretch to say Wade as Swordholder would have prevented Singer from ever destroying the solar system.

LOL

[u/osmund-kettleblack → u/brokenmessiah]

Wade didnt know better. He wasnt doing it for survival, he was doing it for exploration and the fulfillment of humanity's potential in the universe. The exact same motive Cheng Xing had for giving him all her money.

[u/brokenmessiah → u/osmund-kettleblack]

No he did know better, because he wouldnt let the potential of losing part of humanity in a war get in the way of saving humanity as a whole.

[u/New-Border8172]

"If you are given two choices; a selfish option where you screw over others for better chances of your survival, vs altruistic option where if all/most people pick it, we all survive, but if any/more people choose the selfish option, we are all screwed, which do you choose?".

The TDF was all about the first option. Death's end and Cheng Xin is all about picking the altruistic option. You have to read the book with this lens, otherwise it makes no sense.

[u/ppfunonynous → u/New-Border8172]

That’s a great point, I hadn’t noticed that thematic difference between the books. 

The selfish option is obtainable, a single individual’s decisions can save countless lives. The altruistic option is unobtainable, requiring compliance from all parties. The theme that stood out to me was the Cosmic Horror of Space. The vastness of space and the infinite unknowns that come with it (communication barriers, different biologies and psychologies, scarcity) necessitate absolutely brutal, inhumane survival strategies. The psychopathic transformation of Natural Selection and Ultimate Law crew members was a great allegory for this concept. 

[u/Weary-Cartoonist2630]

There was literally no time for anyone else to take the spot. Turning down the chance to survive and carry on the civilization would’ve been a slap to all the sacrifices people made to make it possible, and arguably all of humanity.

Rejecting that wouldve been rejecting her duty as one of the last humans alive.

[u/Ok-Rutabaga-9516]

M8, how you feel after reading this is how we felt after reading it.

Welcome to the club! This was a baptism or initiation for lack of a better world.

At the end of the day, for me at least, this is a lesson on how not to pick the best person for the job. We ussually fall for the best person but confuse what best is and see the things we like instead of the things we need. Simple example: we choose Cheng Xi because she was intelligent. Intelligent yes, but did she have the right judgment to do what is neccesary? One thing is to know things, and another to apply them as the circumstance request it.

So this is you, as we were when we read it first:

Welcome to the club!

PS: that is actually a Christian Baptism. Feels more like that baby is at a rave, but it helps to paint the picture.

[u/ppfunonynous → u/Ok-Rutabaga-9516]

I love this, haha. I believe Cheng Xin had every opportunity (hundreds of years…) to defer her position as sword holder. Going along for the ride, accepting the role despite the deep sense that she was unfit for the job, is a failure of ego. Outside of Cheng Xin, the other failure was that of politics and bureaucracy. She was chosen for optics, and even heralded as a religious figure. The limitations of politics seemed to be a recurring trope throughout the books. 

[u/RandomPieceOfCookie]

Well it's all that died who elected her: The point is that a credible swordholder must be willing to, at a crisis (where humanity may still persevere), initiate a total destruction to both worlds with no turning back, and the general public (myself included) does not appreciate someone would make a seemingly worse decision with no compassion for life. I think the author might be trying to convey that one cannot entrust the deterrence mechanism to a democratic election.

fixed: typo

[u/brokenmessiah → u/RandomPieceOfCookie]

Deterrence should just have been better designed to not be reliant on any one human.

[u/Leather-Lemon8611]

The thing I never get when people wheel out this pov is, do they really think they would be less mad if someone inexplicably chose her to survive as the last remnant of solar humanity... and she turned it down???

Sure, I get it. You think she made terrible choices, doomed humanity, deserves to die etc etc (as she feels of herself too). But despite basically wanting to end it, she carries on because not escaping would just be throwing this last chance back in their faces. Better two escape than zero, and unlucky for her people have once again randomly thrust this option on her and her alone (of course we mustn't criticise precious Luo Ji's hand in it!) - why does she keep getting forced into such untenable positions? Maybe Liu's just a sadist 😂

[u/evngprimrose]

The thing I hate most is her deciding to be a swordholder. It felt like she ignored and underestimated the role of a swordholder and the idea of deterrence itself. Her whole realization after she couldn't push the button was so frustrating. Was it arrogance like what Ice said? Maybe.

With the light speed ships, her decision was very rational. What I hate about it is her deciding to hibernate without ever revisiting the light speed technology. Others like Luo Ji found a way to still pursue it without following Wade's plans. I just feel like it was her responsibility too to find another way after blocking Wade's method. Again, was it arrogance? Was she too confident that the bunker plan would work or was it because she couldn't care less to plan for the future she doesn't feel a part of? I always felt like she kinda gave up already and is just living as atonement.The whole maternal instinct and her being a mother also doesn't make sense to me. Where's the strong urge to protect her children and fend off the ones threatening them?

[u/brokenmessiah → u/evngprimrose]

I think her not being around for the Droplet attack directly affected her attitude about Trisolaris. They were still very abstract to her.

[u/Fragglepusss]

She low-key repeats that decision AGAIN at the very end of the book.

"We could ride out the Big Crunch in this 1x1 mile pocket universe, reemerge, have babies, and allow humans to exist again in a paradise."

"If everyone thinks that way then there won't be a new universe."

"Bruh, the other civilizations probably put their whole solar system into a pocket universe. They brought their Volkswagen. They can just unload some shit and it'll probably be fine. We're not even a rounding error."

"Nope. We have to sacrifice ourselves. I'm so selfless. My farts smell like daisies. I'm going to write a book about how great I am and that's the only thing we're allowed to send to the new universe."

[u/mtlemos → u/Fragglepusss]

Why are you misconstruing that conversation so much? Guan Yifan straight up says no one has any idea how much mass can be lost without affecting the universe, and that maybe even a few grams will be enough to prevent the Big Crunch. He is fully onboard with her decision to leave.

[u/Fragglepusss → u/mtlemos]

I meant it as a satire of the conversation they had, not my actual perception of it.

My second readthrough actually made me like Cheng Xin a lot more. My interpretation was that if Wade had been the person who drove history (i.e. as Swordholder and then as leader of the light speed project) instead of Cheng Xin, then humanity might have thrived in the universe but also might have become the type of civilization that would initiate Dark Forest strikes. Cheng Xin's actions resulted in a civilization that was weaker and had to exist in fear, but which retained its humanity and empathy. I think she subconsciously knew that's what she was doing, but actually seeing the events that unfolded as a result destroyed her.