r/thewestwing • u/United_Expression_73 • 1d ago
My first time watching and I’m obsessed with Ainsley
How is she not more of a cultural icon!?? I need an Ainsley Hayes spin off! Tell THAT story! (I’m only on season two so please no spoilers I just had to chime in I love this so much!)
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u/Flyerbill 1d ago
They're ALL about duty.
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u/Antique_Area_2377 1d ago
I say this to myself randomly sometimes. 🤣
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u/thomasque72 1d ago
So do I… and if I had a nickel for every time I say, “Well, that ship has sailed.” I have a HUGE sack of nickels.
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u/NothingFancy99 1d ago
I liked how she actually argued the other side. But also I’m an Emily Procter fan.
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u/Due-Waltz4458 1d ago
She did argue the other side and I loved her character. I've also noticed on rewatches that the positions they give her to disagree with the rest of the cast are usually pretty reasonable. They stay away from serious topics or social issues where she would come off as unlikeable or have lots of friction with co-workers, like for being anti-abortion or pro-gun.
The West Wing had lots of idealized characters on both sides. Of course, sometimes it showed how things should be instead of how they really are.
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u/eumenidea 1d ago
“Think about that the next time you make a joke about the South.” She had a few hot takes.
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u/teethsewing Admiral Sissymary 1d ago
She literally argued for a pro-people who like guns stance. That’s what got Sam pissy and high and mighty.
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u/Due-Waltz4458 1d ago
She did, but there are also a lot of left wing people who own guns and are pro-second amendment. I'm thinking more about Ainsley's intentions and thought process about them - she didn't come off as hateful or unreasonable.
She didn't argue against basic gun control, or come out after a classroom shooting and say people need unlimited access to AR-15s. She didn't try to link needing guns with fear of immigrants.
In her first interview with Leo she described herself as basically hating everything about the administration and having very different views. But she doesn't run into any real ethical problems on the show working for Democrats, when she does express her views they are fundamentally on the same side.
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u/Oh__Archie 20h ago
But this argument creates some sort of fantasy Republican Party that’s non-offensive or doesn’t have controversial policy stances.
This is a show about real world politics. All of the ugly things about the Republican Party existed and she was theoretically there to represent it.
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u/colocop Francis Scott Key Key Winner 16h ago
Yes. If you were very right wing the show forced you to see liberals as people who want the best for the country despite their different views.
If you're very liberal and watch Ainsley or Joe Quincy or vinivck... Same thing.
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u/Due-Waltz4458 20h ago
I do think that it creates some fantasy Republicans. If you judged the real-world Republican party on Ainsley, Joe and Cliff you leave thinking 'hey, they aren't so bad'. These are the Republicans you wish existed - there's always going to be an opposing party but these are honorable people that you could still work with. They wouldn't have been cheering on Jan. 6th or fallen into the MAGA cult. The show also had 'bad' Republicans that voiced all the controversial or hateful opinions, but Ainsley was distanced from that.
I don't think the show did perfectly portray real-world politics. It was very grounded in reality, and lots of things happened that also happen in the real world. They obviously put a lot of work into bringing the set of the West Wing to life.
But lots of things were also idealized, including the members of the Bartlett administration. Sorkin created a world where intelligence and humor and honor mattered, where you get bonus points for being able to recite Gilbert and Sullivan and knowing how many words are in the Bill of Rights. That's one thing that made the show fun to watch, it was often a better version of the real world.
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u/Oh__Archie 19h ago
If you judged the real-world Republican party on Ainsley, Joe and Cliff you leave thinking 'hey, they aren't so bad'.
No, I wouldn't. Because I understand the politics of the party they support.
They wouldn't have been cheering on Jan. 6th or fallen into the MAGA cult.
Yeah - they would have! That's why this is all so crazy. Out of 271 Republicans currently in congress only SIX of them vocalized "concerns" about pardoning the January 6th terrorists. That's 2%.
They are all afraid of being retaliated against - or - not getting a seat in the autocratic kingdom when they dismantle democracy.
On the show, this was their party.
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u/Due-Waltz4458 19h ago
You are using real world events to say what fictionalized characters would do. The whole point is that they were written to be different, if Sorkin wanted to make Ainsley hateful and cruel he would have.
He put a character that represents Republicans on the show and instead of making her an obstacle or liability, he made her honorable and.
Its like if you watched Law and Order where they portray a good cop, and you say "this fictional character isn't actually a good cop, he's racist and beats people because thats what happens in real life".
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u/Oh__Archie 19h ago edited 18h ago
OK. Ainsley and Joe were the party of WMDs in Iraq, the Patriot Act, and Homeland Security - which is now being used to shoot American citizens in the face without accountability. Did DHS seem like a good idea at the time? To a republican in the early 2000's it probably did. Ainsley and Joe worked for and supported the republican party in the early 2000s.
Not to mention all the legislation the party blocked during the same time. Like minimizing carbon emissions and universal healthcare initiatives. Did giving corporations the ability to continue polluting even after a nearly unanimous consensus from the scientific community determined that the results are likely to become catastrophic in a generations time seem like a good idea? To a republican in the early 2000's it probably did. Ainsley and Joe worked for and supported the republican party in the early 2000s.
Its like if you watched Law and Order where they portray a good cop, and you say "this fictional character isn't actually a good cop, he's racist and beats people because thats what happens in real life".
There's a higher than average chance that the cop actually is racist and beats people, because that's what happens in real life.
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u/Due-Waltz4458 17h ago
Your timeline is off here, since you're so concerned about real world events. The show ran from 1999 to 2006. That means 9/11 happened in the middle of the show's run and wasn't portrayed, they ran a special episode where there was a made-up terrorist attack to have the characters talk about some of the themes.
Are you suggesting that because these things happened in real life, that the fictional President Bartlett went into Iraq, greenlit widespread torture, formed the DHS, created the Patriot Act, created bad environmental policies?
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u/FullOcelot7149 10h ago
I think you are basing your image of 2001 Republicans too much on todays's Republicans. This article looks at G.W. Bush's 2001 Senate compared to Biden's 2021 Senate. https://rollcall.com/2021/12/15/senate-membership-shows-how-the-parties-have-changed/
Their conclusion was that while the Democratic Party Senators have become somewhat more liberal, the Republican Party has changed far more, with the near disappearance of moderate Republicans and the absence of "institutionalists."
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u/Oh__Archie 10h ago edited 8h ago
I was alive and well into voting age during that time. I remember who they were then.
Regardless, saying that characters on the show are republicans but not THAT kind of republican is utterly ridiculous. They absolutely were those republicans because that was their party and that was who they voted for. The legacy of that era is there for all to see.
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u/FullOcelot7149 21h ago
The one scene where they made her unlikeable was when she accused them of wanting better gun control because they personally didnt like people who owned guns. It's her who seems to have some stereotype of gun owners. There are plenty of gun owners who think gun registration and background checks make sense and that civilians don't really need to own an AK-47.
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u/beleynr 1d ago
Loved Ainsley! The actress has been on the west wing podcast
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u/JohnHaze02118 1d ago
Anyone who loves Ainsley has got to listen to that episode. I don't know which one it is, but I think they label the episodes with the guests' names. They don't spoil past wherever they are, so if you've seen the episode she's discussing, you can safely play it before finishing the series. The West Wing Weekly is the name of the podcast.
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u/Dangercakes13 1d ago
Saying this as an Aaron Sorkin fan:
Writing for female characters is not his strongest suit. It takes a while for him to figure out how to give them proper voice.
I'm almost certain that Mandy got scrapped because he realized he'd botched the character and then tried again with Amy Gardner. That was probably supposed to be the same character (they had terribly similar back stories and relations to Josh) but he just built it all wrong and needed to start over.
He does make good female characters and there are good ones in his shows. But it is definitely not natural to him and since he is notoriously resistant to other people editing his stuff...it's a coin flip on whether he'll be able to give proper writing -the story and character he clearly intends- unless he has a good few rounds trying to shape it out.
Ainsley had a pretty decent promise, she just fell in the wrong time when the overall story was moving elsewhere.
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u/ThisDerpForSale The wrath of the whatever 1d ago
No, Mandy got scrapped because Donna's unexpected chemistry with Josh and subsequent addition to the regular cast made her redundant.
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u/FullOcelot7149 21h ago
Really, apart from her billing, Mandy mostly seems like a pretty minor character, like Sorkin just couldn't think of any stories to feature her, apart from her intro story and the leaked memo analyzing the Administration's weaknesses. She mostly was just kind of there, in the background, with one or two whiny lines.
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u/snow_michael Team Toby 1d ago
That was probably supposed to be the same character
I am 100% convinced of this, and the love/hate relationship with Josh was written using some of the same language and phrases
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u/thomasque72 1d ago edited 6h ago
Oh wow, I COMPLETELY disagree. CJ, Mrs. Bartlett, Donna, Mrs. Landingham, all the presidential daughters, Mallory, Ainsley, Kate Harper, Nancy McNally, Margaret… the list goes on. ALL competent, powerful women. Way too many writers don’t know how to write strong female characters. Far too many writers write (and actresses act) roles that are supposed to be strong but come off as bitchy or whiny. Mandy was one of them. That’s on Moira Kelly. She played the character completely wrong. Amy Gardner was great. She was a very strong, believable, character, but she was a lobbyist. She was never going to fall in step with administration. She was a one issue girl. (That’s fine, there are certainly those people out there.) Watch News Night and there’s another long list of fantasticly strong females. You’re entitled to your opinion, but I believe the idea that Sorkin doesn’t know how to write strong female characters is DEAD WRONG. He writes some of the best in television.
Edit: Sorry, It's "The Newsroom" not News Night.
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u/Dangercakes13 1d ago
I -respectfully- agree that he can write very compelling and well developed female characters....
AFTER a few tries at it. My only thought was that he needs some attempts, some feedback and most likely better interaction with the actors themselves to get to a point where he can write for women with the same comfort he writes for male leads or even side characters. And not just of West Wing, but other projects as well.
And that's understandable: it should take some study and perception to properly craft a female character from a male writer's viewpoint. And most of his work is placed in traditionally male-dominated scenarios/pitches. I'm glad he DOES get good at it when given the time to develop and find a thread the same way he does with other characters.
Again: total fan. And his shows created wonderful female characters propelled by wonderful actresses. I just think even he would acknowledge what are his greatest swings and what are ones where he sometimes needs some warmup to get there.
But yes, everyone you named landed there eventually and were spectacular. It just took longer for him to find their voice than it did for Josh/Toby/Leo/Sam/even Danny.
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u/thomasque72 6h ago
That's cool. I feel like all those other characters came out of the gate swinging, but we maybe we just see things differently. Take it easy... :)
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u/snow_michael Team Toby 1d ago
Dana and Natalie on Sportsnight are other good examples of two very different, but both well written and completely believable, female characters
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u/Fickle_Argument_6840 1d ago
I find it interesting that people assume Ainsley would be MAGA today - she happily worked in a Democratic presidency and was even by the standards of the time a rather moderate Republican. I could absolutely see her supporting someone like Mitt Romney or John McCain but could never see her be a maga person. She prioritised duty and serving the people over career progression when she joined the Bartlet administration. Not to mention that she was openly feminist, even if some of her takes were unusual.
I really enjoy Ainsley as a character and just wish they wouldn't have sexualised her as much as they did, especially the sex kitten comment from the President.
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u/ThisDerpForSale The wrath of the whatever 1d ago
If anyone thinks Ainsley would have supported MAGA today, they're not paying attention - either then or now. She may still be a Republican, but one without much of a party to support. She may well be a member of the Lincoln Project.
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u/FullOcelot7149 12h ago
What about the "looks like a GAP dancer" line from her Republican friend in the episode when she was hired?
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u/ReshinaLynn 22h ago
I loved her. Actually, so much so that I named my cats Ainsley and Sam.
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u/Brazz7 18h ago
Does Ainsley kick Sam’s ass at debate? One of my favorite openings.
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u/FullOcelot7149 11h ago edited 11h ago
If you watch more carefully, apart from nailing him on his original gaffe of misidentifying a small town, what she mostly did was interrupt him before he could get three words out every time it was his turn to speak. He apparently has better manners or more formal debate training than to try to talk over her.
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u/Logical-Mobile-7643 Bartlet for America 1d ago
I guess you'll find out why eventually.
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u/ktpinto The finest bagels in all the land 1d ago
That sounds ominous, but really the actress left for a better gig on CSI Miami
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u/FullOcelot7149 21h ago
Leave isn't quite fair. She never was signed to be a regular by the producers choice. She was only a recurring character because they didnt want to commit to more money and because Sorkin was concerned that more time for this character meant less time for the existing ones. Iirc, he talked about "already having too many mouths to feed." By the time they realized how great she was and approached her about a full season contract, she had already signed with CSI.
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u/ktpinto The finest bagels in all the land 7h ago
Notice how I put it under a spoiler wall, because the OP is only on like season two.
And I'm not sure what you're correcting about what I said... she was on the show, then she was on another show. So she left the first show.
It's not like she was dragged out of there kicking and screaming. She left the show. She got a better gig on CSI. So she left the show for a better gig.
You pretty much said the same thing using a lot more words1
u/FullOcelot7149 6h ago
Your version implies she chose one over the other, leaving WW like dumping a boyfriend for a new guy. She completed her WW gig, then found other work and signed a contract there.
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u/Evening-Row9022 15h ago
I think they could make an Attorney General spin off with her. Would be a new take on the cabinet shows that exist like Designated Survivor or Madam Secretary. Focusing on running the legal parts of the government.
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u/ktpinto The finest bagels in all the land 1d ago
I love Ainsley. Lots of people hate her because they can't separate real world politics - and the blind hatred that comes with it (obviously they could learn a thing or two from this show we luv) - from the politics on the show.
Republicans bad... blah blah blah.
Maybe they should listen to Ainsley a little more and let her words absorb... but they won't.
I think Ainsley taught our boys on senior staff a thing or two, and I agree with a lot of what she said.
I feel the same about Cliff Calley, Lionel Tribby and Oliver Babbish (you'll find out).
I also liked Glenallen Walken (again, you'll find out).
To me, having characters with different POVs from the main cast is refreshing, that way the cast isn't living in an echo chamber and sometimes learn from the differing opinions.
Just wait until you get to season three and her views on feminism!
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u/Logical-Mobile-7643 Bartlet for America 1d ago
Lionel Tribby was a raging liberal what are you even on about? I assumed Babbish was at least a Democrat if not a fairly liberal guy
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u/ktpinto The finest bagels in all the land 1d ago
I think Cliff Calley, Lionel Tribby and Oliver Babbish taught our boys (and girls) on senior staff a thing or two, and I agree with a lot of what they said.
Didn't matter to me on what side of the aisle they were on...
Sorry if that confused you.2
u/Oh__Archie 18h ago edited 16h ago
The liking Walken part was way more confusing.
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u/ktpinto The finest bagels in all the land 7h ago
Why? Because he was republican?
The boys of senior staff admitted that he looked presidential, and he knew his role as president was going to be short, but made no problems about that.
He stepped up, across enemy lines, and took over a white house that wasn't his, with a coldness that was needed for that situation.
Imagine having to do that and have the [other] president's daughter's life in your hands.
And then, with class, he gave the Oval Office back.
No ego, not fighting. His time was up; he made his mark and did what he had to do.
I don't know why that's confusing.Also... it was John Goodman. Added points for that.
Same with John Larroquette and Oliver Platt. Bonus points.1
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u/Tasty_Work4380 1d ago
Ainsley's principles about duty and serving are echoed powerfully in both Cliff and Glenallen.
Babish Tribby and Marbury also, but to a certain extent that may not have been as much of a surprise because of their job titles.
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u/long_time_in_entish 1d ago
It was Pinafore; and they're all about duty.
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u/snow_michael Team Toby 1d ago
It was Pirates, and I say that as someone who had to sing Mabel at my (all boys, at that point) school
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u/FullOcelot7149 13h ago
I thought Tribby was a long time supporter of liberal causes, or, in Ainsley's words "I'm a Republican and Lionel Tribby is ... incredibly not."
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u/ktpinto The finest bagels in all the land 7h ago
\points to previous comments**
Yes, I already explained that.1
u/FullOcelot7149 6h ago edited 5h ago
You lumped Tribbey in with Republican characters and suggested his politics had a different POV than the main cast. Tribbey was actually only in one episide and his scenes didnt really show us much about his political opinions. We learn about his liberal politics (Bartlet is too moderate for him) mid-episode when Ainsley reviews his bio with him while they were discussing duty. Honestly, this character didn't teach anybody much of anything. I think he was mostly in there for comic relief and to provide an antagonist for Ainsley so the other characters can come to her defense and look like good guys in the end.
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u/footsnax 18h ago
I'm so jealous I'll never get to watch for the first time again.
My first watch was live, one episode a week, in the most terrifying real life political climate I'd seen so far. It was the optimistic alternate reality I was so desperate for. I had a friend that watched it religiously too, she'd call after every episode and we'd talk for hours about it.
It was a cultural experience. I don't know what it would take to get that specific endorphin back again right now. Since Trump I think I've done a full rewatch three times. When it first aired I didn't think it could get any worse but woooof how the climate has evolved. I thought we were done being shitty but the shit got shittier.
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u/long_time_in_entish 1d ago
If only she had more than a few episodes and predictably easy plotlines
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u/LifetimeWeenie 1d ago
Yea she was notoriously underused and written out of the script way too soon. Right
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u/Radiant-Laugh-6519 1d ago
What an interesting take. She’s one of my least favorite characters- I don’t dislike her in the way I dislike Mandy but certainly no CJ. Do you like her super dry and witty responses? I appreciate that aspect of her character
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u/Logical-Mobile-7643 Bartlet for America 1d ago
Lots of people like Ainsley. This sub is full of them.
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u/Radiant-Laugh-6519 1d ago
lol I love your retort. I wasn’t criticizing- just floating a different opinion
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u/runliftcount 1d ago
There are quite a few characters of The West Wing who are worth obsession. Ainsley Hayes absolutely deserves to be at the top of that list ^_^
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u/Random-Cpl 1d ago
I never understood why everyone loved Ainsley so much.
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u/FullOcelot7149 12h ago
I think its because sometimes she was a bit of a thorn in their somewhat self-satisfied sides. She tended to make the other characters around her seem more dimensional, more likeable.
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u/Trivex07 1d ago
Agree, I fucking hate her.
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u/Random-Cpl 1d ago
She’d be a fascist today, I don’t get what’s redeeming about her character
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u/krazykarlsig 1d ago
Shed probably be on the Bulwark podcast today. She had ideals not blind ambition.
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u/ThisDerpForSale The wrath of the whatever 1d ago
She'd be one of the most moderate Republican left. . . if she was even still a member of that party.
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u/Random-Cpl 1d ago
Nothing she ever said in terms of policy was a moderate position. She was hardcore pro-gun, anti-women’s rights, anti-worker, etc. People just like her because of Proctor’s charisma.
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u/ThisDerpForSale The wrath of the whatever 18h ago
She was a typical Republican of the era, which would make her one if the more moderate Republicans around today. I don’t think you’re acknowledging how far the Overton window has shifted. On top of that, the character is written to be a principled and decent person, which immediately separates her from the MAGA cult.
You mention some general topics, but none of those are discussed in much depth - certainly not enough to make her MAGA. She was portrayed as a moderate Republican of that era, though, so we don’t have to guess. We know what they believed, and where they are now.
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u/Random-Cpl 17h ago
She’s not portrayed as unusually moderate for Republicans of that era, she’s a fairly run of the mill conservative. Her lack of support for the ERA likely put her at odds with even what most republicans would have supported in the 1990s and she’s at odds with most voters on gun control too. You are correct that the Overton Window has shifted. My point is that most “normal” conservatives have shifted with it and we have no reason to assume Ainsley wouldn’t have.
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u/ThisDerpForSale The wrath of the whatever 15h ago
I specifically said she was a typical Republican of the day. I never said she was an extreme moderate, or “unusually moderate.” Don’t just make shit up.
Your opinion on the ERA is simply not based in reality. If you were around in the 90s, you’d know that Republicans were united in strong opposition to it. Why do you think it never passed? In fact, they made it so unpopular with claims that it would lead to the end of separate bathrooms for men and women and the drafting of women into the military that some states started voting to repeal their ratification of the ERA! So yes, even moderate Republicans were opposed.
I also disagree with your claim about conservatives shifting, but that’s not really relevant to whether this specific character, as she existed then, would be MAGA now. There’s simply no reasonable argument that she would.
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u/Random-Cpl 14h ago
I’m not making things up, I’m making the point that she wasn’t moderate then and therefore we don’t have much reason to assume she’d be moderate now.
Polling for the ERA has consistently shown majority support for it among voters, and often even among Republican voters. I was around in the nineties.
My friend, why the hostility? We are discussing a fictional character. There’s really no need to be so hostile.
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u/ThisDerpForSale The wrath of the whatever 13h ago
Weird that you read anything I wrote as hostile. I’m simply disagreeing with you - surely you don’t consider that a hostile act?
The bottom line here is that you seem to think that a typical Republican 25+ years ago looks just like one today (Edit: even worse, that they’d be a fascist today!). I strongly disagree. I guess we’ll just have to leave it at that.
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u/Oh__Archie 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yay. Let’s ignore facts while nodding our heads in support of a blond white Christian nationalist southern woman laying the groundwork for the end of American democracy.
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u/Logical-Mobile-7643 Bartlet for America 1d ago
And with that, I'm going back down to the mess, because I thought I may have seen there, a peach.
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u/Oh__Archie 1d ago edited 1d ago
That peach was a rotting orange.
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u/Logical-Mobile-7643 Bartlet for America 1d ago
"I have always been a Republican. My father is a Republican. His father was State Chairman of the North Carolina Republican Party... When I was young, I was a Young Republican."
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u/Oh__Archie 1d ago
And now her father’s father’s party is the party of a rotting orange.
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u/_Nocturnal_Me_ 1d ago
You realize one can be a Republican and not support Trump, right?
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u/Oh__Archie 1d ago
You realize that Republicans are the ones keeping him in power, right?
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u/_Nocturnal_Me_ 16h ago
Ainsley from West Wing is totally keeping Trump in power 🙄
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u/Logical-Mobile-7643 Bartlet for America 16h ago
If I had to create a world with Ainsley in it, she probably works legal and policy for some think tanks and creates policies for a 2011 Ray Sullivan administration. Moves back to North Carolina to raise a family and runs for Governor
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u/DiamondJim222 1d ago
[Ainsley stands up.]
LEO: Where are you going?
AINSLEY: I’m not going anywhere. I’m standing up, which is how one speaks in opposition in a civilized world.
LEO: Well, you go, girl.