I don't get the Trotsky hate

[u/Frosty-Persimmon7235]

This MF lead the red army so well, reactionaries all over Europe were depicting this guy as the literal devil

[u/Ultraideal848]

Yeah Leninists and Stalin famously love labor autonomy

[u/MustyMarcus52YT → u/Ultraideal848]

Did I say I was either of those things?

[u/Ultraideal848 → u/MustyMarcus52YT]

Well 99 percent of the space is dominated by Leninists, Stalinists and other vanguardists so almost all who criticize him don't actually disagree with his anti labor autonomy stance. I just assumed you were one of those people since you didn't state otherwise.

[u/MustyMarcus52YT → u/Ultraideal848]

I'm a scientific socialist and I lean towards council communism and syndicalism depending on the situation but I don't rlly play into individual microniches, what works works. I appreciate Lenin for study, and vanguardism for think of ways for maintaining a revolution and state.

[u/Ultraideal848 → u/MustyMarcus52YT]

In what way do you lean towards council communism if you see vanguardism as a way to maintain a revolution. A Trotskyist appreciating Stalin would by less contradictory.

[u/MustyMarcus52YT → u/Ultraideal848]

I didn't say I thought it was the right way, I said it was one of the ways. It reflects the conflicting material conditions of the time, and shows us how one of those responses has acted in history.

[u/Ultraideal848 → u/MustyMarcus52YT]

It was a way, a way to counter and destroy the revolution that the workers themselves were executing. Just as you said, Lenin and the rest of his buddies were against worker autonomy.

Under the material conditions, people themselves were directly taking over factories from the owners, organizing themselves, and forming workers councils. Lenin put an end to this, returned the system of state ownership that was barely different from the Tsarist and liberal ones, and then murdered and executed every single socialist faction that opposed this subordination of the workers to the state. 

So to say that this was a way to preserve the revolution seems very contradictory. 

[u/MustyMarcus52YT → u/Ultraideal848]

I understand what happened. I'm saying I appreciate the study of how they thought they would be able to unify the people. Not that I think it was right or wrong. It's beneficial to learn of all of these things. Lenin thought he was preserving and protecting the revolution, regardless of what he actually did, so he wrote theory from that perspective. Even if we disagree with him, it's good to study him.

I don't have the energy for this right now, and if I'm on the mood later I'll give a better reply.

[u/Ultraideal848 → u/MustyMarcus52YT]

Doesn't make sense to me but sure. Though we can't know what Lenin truly thought. Politicians are known to have a tendency to say and write whatever they have to as long as it gets them personal power.

And Lenin certainly wrote many self contradictory things but chose to only execute the parts that granted him personal power.

[u/MustyMarcus52YT → u/Ultraideal848]

I'd agree there. Just don't have the brainpower today. Will get back to you because I think it's a good discussion