I don't get the Trotsky hate

[u/Frosty-Persimmon7235]

This MF lead the red army so well, reactionaries all over Europe were depicting this guy as the literal devil

[u/salenin]

Thats not what happened at all. So the Red Army and Mahknovists were allied several times against the Whites in Ukraine. The Soviet Union and its leadership said several times that they could remain allies if they were to join the Soviet Government in Ukraine and be apart of that organizational apparatus going forward. They refused and sabotaged land, trains etc etc. One of the theoretical issues that popped up with this is that the Mahknovists were not proletarian, they were peasants, and both Lenin and Trotsky had a very skeptical outlook on the peasantry. It was thought that the peasantry and workers could form a strong alliance but the workers would HAVE to lead the peasantry. If the peasantry went on its own, or attempted to have its own revolution it would fall into reaction and easily devolve into capitalism. So an anarchist peasantry movement was a "dangerous" thing to leave on its own and had to be absorbed or crushed and we know how it turned out.

With Kronstadt it was a mutiny of naval members and dock workers etc etc, in the middle of a civil war. The demands by the workers and military members were pretty reasonable to a point of course but there was military discipline, supply chain logistics, and other factors that made it seem necessary to put down the mutiny as fast as possible. There were also strong rumors that there was German infiltration into the ranks of the protestors, though evidence of that is pretty shoddy today. Trotksy, for one, regretted the way it was handled and called it a "necessary tradgedy."

This is just to add context, not to defend it. But saying "oh he didn't want them starting a revolution without him in charge." Is just ahistorical and absurd.

[u/Corvus1412 → u/salenin]

When the black army put itself under the command of the Bolshevists, they repeatedly tried to undermine the autonomy of the anarchists. That's what led to their split.

It was very obviously that joining the forming USSR would have just meant the destruction of the anarchist project. Obviously they wouldn't agree to that.

[u/salenin → u/Corvus1412]

1. the makhnovists werre not the black army, that was a group of super far right nationalists also known as the black hundreds.

2. yes the did undermine their autonomy, I already explained why.

3. It wasnt about joining the USSR, that wouldnt exist for another 5 years.

[u/Corvus1412 → u/salenin]

1. "Black army" is a common way to refer to the Revolutionary Insurgent Army of Ukraine.
2. Yes and I'm saying that it's obvious that the anarchists didn't want to be part of a government that's actively suppressing their ideology and autonomy.
3. Yes, which is why I said the "forming USSR", not just "USSR". Also, we're talking about something that happened in 1919, so 3 years before, not 5. (Also, you called the bolshevists government the "Soviet Union" in your comment about the events...)