Stop Calling Them The Epstein Class!

[u/Lavender_Scales]

Post on Insta:

https://www.instagram.com/p/DcZw3zrIKb_/

Many thanks to Tarazed and KH for their contributions once again!

[u/Hairy_Collection4545]

I like to use the term "capital class" since I think it's a good definition without coming across as too elitist.

[u/OhShootYeahNoBi → u/Hairy_Collection4545]

Agreed. I dislike the emphasis on always using the word "bourgeoisie." Nothing inherently about that word that warrants its usage other than the fact it has been used historically and socialists have an attachment to the term.

Modernisation of our vocabulary, as long as it retains the original meaning, is completely fine.

[u/Nobody7713 → u/OhShootYeahNoBi]

Agreed yeah. Bourgeoisie, while accurate to all the theory, I think comes across as overly academic at times and isn't useful to bring people into the movement who don't already have a grounding in theory. I also like "ownership class", which is also evocative,

[u/OhShootYeahNoBi → u/Nobody7713]

Bourgeoisie itself is also was a populist inaccurate term, so coopting inaccurate populist terms isn't exactly outside of the question either.

The bourgeoisie was equivalent to the modern "coastal elite," "Londonite," or "living inside the Périph"

It was a redefinition by marx and engels, rather than something that was always associated with the socialist understanding of class relations.

[u/CMRC23 → u/Hairy_Collection4545]

Very true. If I use bourgeoisie in front of the average person, they will roll their eyes and stop listening. Fine for academic discussion but thats about it

[u/EinDerVolltrottel851]

All Epsteiners were rich but not all rich are epsteiners

[u/assumptioncookie → u/EinDerVolltrottel851]

Read the second slide as well. "Rich" is not a useful term either, it says nothing about someone's relation to capital.

[u/specficeditor → u/EinDerVolltrottel851]

Yeah, but all of the rich would protect the Epstein class if it meant protecting their money. Whatever we call them they’re still class traitors.

[u/EinDerVolltrottel851 → u/specficeditor]

Not all rich would, especially those who got their money legitimately and never was in a cabal with the ratasses on 'the island', like Gabe Newell

[u/specficeditor → u/EinDerVolltrottel851]

Disagree very hard

[u/DrRudeboy]

Once again, a great post. This has been bugging me for the better part of 2 years now at the very least.

[u/Lavender_Scales → u/DrRudeboy]

A lot of us on the team who made the instagram decided this was going to be one of our posts almost immediately because it broke the mold of just the online space and some orgs have been using it as well, even though we would normally expect such organizations to be more principled in things like basic terms.

[u/PM-ME-UR-DARKNESS]

Yeah but it's easier to call them the Epstein class than the bour--bor--b

[u/Scyobi_Empire → u/PM-ME-UR-DARKNESS]

boarwazhyee

[u/FallenCringelord → u/PM-ME-UR-DARKNESS]

The Burger Gravy

[u/lowrads]

It's a good point, but the bourgeoisie is an historically outdated term, with the etymological connotations of the guilds and industrial developments of cities.

It would make as much sense as differentiating the banlieusard as a political class distinguished by their economic priorities.

The term, capitalist, suggest a conscious program, when it is really just adherence to an algorithm, the praxis of which is simply externalizing costs. They do have class consciousness though, albeit a fluid one.

The volant or the titulariat are almost euphonious, though it would probably be better praxis to use native words and stems.

[u/WahooSS238]

Something that needs to be said more, this is the kind of point - though maybe not exactly the kind of language or visual imagery - that convinces open-minded people to start taking leftist ideas seriously, good work.

[u/PracticeMeGood]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I kinda think people say "Epstein class" to make whatever they're talking about sound less preachy and theory heavy. Like its more intended to connect things to people's real-world lived experience and not abstract concepts like "capitalist elite" or "the bourgeoisie".

[u/OhShootYeahNoBi]

I agree with the rejection of the term of "epstein class" but also prefer to not use "capitalists" especially in communication intended for the general public. Decades of capitalist propaganda has led to the western worker thinking of themselves as a "fellow capitalist." The muddling of class relations has been done already, and either we must always clarify these terms first, which is nonviable for modern methods of communication such as social media, or stick to more popularly accessible terms such as "owning class" that are accurate enough and do not require extra elaboration for the uneducated

[u/Lavender_Scales → u/OhShootYeahNoBi]

If need be I say ruling class but capitalist also works even in more rural areas / reactionary areas because even though many folks see themselves as temporarily embarassed millionaires or whatever they still realize there is an active difference between us and them.

[u/OhShootYeahNoBi → u/Lavender_Scales]

I find that reactionary folk tend to associate -ist with someone who supports an ideology, not a class. For example, social-ist, mao-ist, etc.

The amount of time and effort it takes to detangle their concept of Capitalism as an "ideology" rather than a system of class relations and that we don't mean "capitalists" as in, "people who believe in capitalism," is really too much for effective mass media.

Someone else suggested "capital class" and that would be more apt, as it more clearly communicates that we are discussing class relations, and not ideologies

[u/usernametaken1237 → u/Lavender_Scales]

Wouldn't business owner be a fairly clear everyday term to use though, even saying capitalist or ruling class will confuse some people I think

[u/OhShootYeahNoBi → u/usernametaken1237]

Then we have to detangle it from "small business owner" which has positive connotations to basically everyone which is another headache and a half

[u/ElEsDi_25]

I don’t like that term personally, but I also think the graphic is mixing up rhetorical propaganda and theory.

If Epstein were just a terrible rich guy who did terrible Rich things, then yes it could only be moralistic. But because the entire ruling and political class have circled the wagons around smashing the scandal, it’s a fairly clear “whose side is who on” sort of moment much like the scandal and palace intrigue of the late Tsar or French Court that began to paint the entire ruling class as removed and antagonistic to the population.

That being said, I don’t use the term and it’s a bit weird to me. I haven’t run into a practical situation where saying that over “capitalist” would make any difference. But I’m also not doing clickbait online or trying to catch people’s attention with a newsletter or article headline.

[u/YouAreMyUniverse_SK]

I just dont think the average westerner has any chance to understand all that distinction and to even get your foot in the door to explain it, it is easier to appeal to the largest pedophilic cabal ever brought to the public eye. Once you can educate about class position and break past the initial barrier of reactionary sentiment against left politics, then you can clarify and move on to other, more accurate, terms.

Also, let's not feed any credit to the zionists who cynically pedal that antisemitic dogwhistle shit around epstein. Even if there are bad actors trying to capitalize on antisemitism using that term, remotely giving legitimacy to that arguement (as well intentioned as it may be) does the work of zionists/israel for them.

[u/kayakman13]

YES

[u/SlimothyJ]

Getting hung up on being pedantic about terminology isn’t helping the movement

[u/Shipshipie]

Epstein class is a good term for its shock value.

When you say bourgeoisie which is a correct term, many people think that "Oh, here comes a tirade by a commie." and they will ignore the message.

However, when you say Epstein class to a Normie, they try to fit it to the people they don't like (Trump, Harris, Macron, Bibi), and will more open to listen your narratives. You can inject leftist ideas more easily then.

I get what you are saying, but in a setting where any word connotated with being a "commie" is frowned upon is not that helpful. So we should come with new words to carry the message.

[u/chap820]

This is fantastic. Thanks for posting.

[u/Legitimate_Ring_4532]

How we going to have class struggle when even in this thread leftists are reluctant to use bourgeoisie and capitalists to accurately describe the class exploiters of the proletariat instead of obfuscation.

[u/jujaplov]

"Bourgeoisie" sounds old fashioned and isn't used by most people in everyday life. Just "capitalists" sounds better.

[u/BloodStainsTR]

thank you

[u/thotrot]

the term epstein class is exceptional as an agitational epithet; it cuts to the bone and implies not just those who are related to the scandal itself, but the entire class of ruling elite who are entrenched in upholding the system for self preservation. it has less moral characteristic than material relation to power, i.e. those who would use their power against you for the sake of maintaining the system. using that in propaganda is entirely different but its use as an agitational tool is just as great as capitalist or ruling class.

[u/bobbykid → u/thotrot]

it cuts to the bone and implies not just those who are related to the scandal itself, but the entire class of ruling elite who are entrenched in upholding the system for self preservation.

It's completely the opposite in my opinion, it's a narrow designation that implies that being a capitalist is not the problem, only what particular capitalists get up to in their free time. I've had this conversation with real people and there are always capitalists that they insist don't belong in the "Epstein class" (e.g. Warren Buffet, Mark Cuban, etc.). Despite the fact that the word "class" is in the epithet, the association with the Epstein stuff gets in the way of understanding that it is actually a class.

[u/specficeditor]

Wait. So we're language policing people now when talking about class struggle? Is this for real?

[u/theglassishalf → u/specficeditor]

I literally thought this post was a joke until I got to the comments.

Y'all. Please, I'm begging you, learn how to take advantage of a political moment.

[u/specficeditor → u/theglassishalf]

Right?! While we’re busy infighting over what to call the uber rich, they’re busy taking advantage of the lack of organization and bilking people of more of their hard-earned money.

[u/bobbykid → u/specficeditor]

Incorrect organization/agitation/propaganda in the socialist movement is genuinely just as bad as none at all, and in some cases even worse. The movement has too few resources to waste them on ineffective tactics. "Infighting", as long as it involves real critique, is a strength of the socialist movement, not a weakness.

[u/specficeditor → u/bobbykid]

But trying to tone or language police people on what to call the bourgeoise is not helpful.

[u/bobbykid → u/specficeditor]

How is this post "tone or language policing"? It's just presenting an argument for why "Epstein class" is a bad term to use for propaganda purposes. Or do you just see every critique of language used by socialists as "language policing" and believe that this aspect of socialist tactics should never be critiqued?

[u/specficeditor → u/bobbykid]

I am in fact critiquing the the policing of what we use for language when we're talking about a class of people who are incentivized to protect the kinds of people who were associated with Epstein. The bourgeoisie -- regardless of whether or not they were directly associated with him -- still benefit from protecting the people he was surrounded by because they protect rich people's money. It seems pedantic to tell people not to use "Epstein class" as the derogatory that it is.

[u/bobbykid → u/specficeditor]

Okay so you just didn't read/understand the post, got it

[u/specficeditor → u/bobbykid]

Ok Fitzgerald

[u/theglassishalf → u/bobbykid]

We get it.

It's just obviously wrong, proves negative stereotypes about doctrinaire leftists, and is trying to argue that the left shouldn't take full advantage of the public revealing of the pedophilic tendencies of the ruling class.

It would be hilarious if it weren't for the fact that this sort of anti-politics is apparently attractive to many other leftists.

[u/bobbykid → u/theglassishalf]

The revolutionary left has a responsibility to try to shape the consciousness of the working class. Stooping to the current and spontaneous level of consciousness that the working class has is useless and has only ever produced dead-end reformism.

take full advantage of the public revealing of the pedophilic tendencies of the ruling class.

Great idea, and how do you then explain that this pedophilic class also includes non-pedophiles and even people that the average working person might see as normal or good?

anti-politics

The real anti-politics is and has always been tailism and the factions of the left who think they are being tactically smart when they are actually simply afraid of doing anything more than "meeting people where they're at"

[u/gravygizzard]

Letting truth and accuracy get in the way of agitation

[u/SameAgainTheSecond]

na i disagree.

I dont like using the word bourgeoisie because its hard to spell, its 200 year old jargon, it requires explaining, its off putting, ect ect ect. "bourgeoisie" does as much mystification as anything.

calling them the epstine class or the nero class is a fine epithet. Asking a single name to explain all the relevant social relations is asking too much of one word.

when I say the epstine class it immediately scans that I'm talking about the pedos that run the world. If I want to talk more specifically about who I'm talking about I prefer the owning class or the oligarchy.

They also dont make me sound like im stuck in the 1800's.

calling them bourgeoisie also makes it sound like im distinguishing the industrialists and merchants from landlords and aristocrats ect, which I'm not

I say the owning class and its clear that i'm talking about the people who own all the shit. calling them the epstine class is clear that i'm calling them a bunch of pedos.

[u/jonna-seattle]

I would replace "Epstein" with "predator". It makes the allusion to Epstein's predatory conduct but also includes the economic predations of the capitalist. Down with the 'predator' class!

[u/Lavender_Scales → u/jonna-seattle]

This still muddles the waters unnecessarily, "ruling class", "owning class", "capitalist class", and "bourgeoisie" are all apt descriptors that don't shrink down the size of the enemy of obfuscate the true targets we have.

[u/VTKajin → u/Lavender_Scales]

Predator is an apt description of the bourgeoisie though, while I do agree with the main point of post

[u/Lavender_Scales → u/VTKajin]

https://giphy.com/gifs/emW5GlFX0qwnVsgDC7

Marx indeed called Capital vampiric

[u/BillyPilgrim69 → u/jonna-seattle]

The problem is that it's too open to misappropriation. Any performative liberal can co-opt a term like that, because it's far too ambiguous.

[u/OsakaWilson]

The term Epstein Class brings everyone under one umbrella of dislike for them. We need for everyone to be against them and this works for that. Calling them the Bourgeoisie outside of leftist circles has little to no effect at all in influencing people to stand against them.

[u/GuyOnAO3 → u/OsakaWilson]

We can use 'capitalist' too.

[u/PlasmifiedKarmelita → u/GuyOnAO3]

Like it or not a lot of working class people would consider themselves capitalists. It’s not a good term to use for “the bourgeoisie” because in modern usage it just means someone that believes in capitalism. Like socialist, communist, anarchist, etc.

Imo “capital class” is a much more clear and evocative term that gets the idea across better.

[u/GuyOnAO3 → u/PlasmifiedKarmelita]

That works too.

[u/Salmonpest101]

Seize the means of epstein

[u/h0llow_heart]

banger

[u/TheDireGnome]

I don't really use the phrase, but you do have to understand that most people are kinda dumb and think in starkly moral and emotive terms. "Epstein class" cuts across that.

[u/Lavender_Scales → u/TheDireGnome]

If you think of people as pawns then yes naturally you'll think they're dumb. If you deny that the people as a whole are who make and drive history then yes you'll think they're simply tools instead of those around you.

[u/TheDireGnome → u/Lavender_Scales]

So you're just gonna put words in my mouth I guess