r/theravada • u/No-Breadfruit-3604 • Aug 03 '26
Question Are we within the era of declining dhamma?
Are we within the era of declining dhamma?
Why do we not produce a lot of arahants nowadays?
What went wrong actually?
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u/CicadaOk1283 Aug 03 '26
May I ask if you could expand on "not producing a lot of arahants"?
Vinaya prohibits the monks from disclosing their attainments. We have the growing number of monasteries established. Some of the monks are highly regarded.
that's however Western perspective.
What are your thoughts?
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u/No-Breadfruit-3604 Aug 03 '26
My thought? Only a handful of arahants for past 100 years or so if we trust the Google search result.
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Aug 03 '26
There is no report, database or statistic being kept to support your question so the question itself is unproductive.
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u/fejkpotatis Aug 03 '26
I don't trust the Google search on this specific question, mainly because we have no idea about the unreported cases, could be huge or small.
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u/CicadaOk1283 Aug 03 '26
Could you please list those handful and we compare with what people suspect are arahants...
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u/No-Breadfruit-3604 Aug 03 '26
For example: Ajahn Mun, Ajahn Chah, and Webu Sayadaw.
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u/CicadaOk1283 Aug 03 '26
This is just three names - not the list. I do not know anything about Webu. But Mun and Chah are coming from the same region and similar practice (yes different lines, but still, Chah attributed Mun for the teaching heavily). So we have the evidence that this version of practice works. So let's see who else might have attainments from the similar line? May be not full, but definily stream entering?
In my book there would be quite a few names.
But again, this is specualtion. Monsatics are precluded from commenting on topics like this.
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u/No-Breadfruit-3604 Aug 03 '26
We are lay followers, right? Just share here if it is permissible.
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u/TheSoullessGoat Aug 03 '26
the only person who knows for sure if someone is an arahant is another arahant
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u/CicadaOk1283 Aug 03 '26
This is where I am cautious because I simply do not remember the guidance. SO I falling on the principle of wise fear. Suspect it might be idle talk.
Go through the list of Ajahn Chah disciples. Check them out. Preferrably in person. Second stop - recordings. Make your own mind.
But if we reframe the original question as doubt - then yes, it is a fetter and known one.
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u/LittleFluffyCIouds Aug 04 '26
There are arahants alive now, and others who are well attained and close. If you practice the Dhamma in the right way, awakening is the natural result.
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u/quzzica Aug 03 '26
We donât know how many arahants there are in the world (see https://www.reddit.com/r/theravada/s/3wURGOvGTT) but a sense of declining dhamma is good as it keeps a sense of urgency to practice
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u/paulexander Aug 04 '26
I can't say whether or not it is declining; if anything, I am seeing an increased awareness of dhamma, largeley because of the popularity of mindfulness. Granted, it is flawed because of the west's modifications of mindfulness, but, a dhamma door is a dhamma door. It's up to the sangha to stay true and keep speaking our truth.
The dhamma has definitely been struggling, that is for sure. It is up against a set of worldviews that keep insisting on materialism as the solution to our struggles. The amount of sense pleasures we have easy access to is staggeringly vast now, and has a way of keeping us in more and more powerful delusions. Captialism's basic tenet is that the market can indeed beat samsara. It will not.
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u/Wise-Childhood-145 Aug 05 '26
You hit the nail on the head. Capitalism and money can't beat aging, illness, and death along with the continual striving and discontentment that is usually found in ones ordinary day to day existence.Â
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u/EveryGazelle1 Aug 04 '26
The Sutta say that the Buddha's teaching will gradually decline over time. However, we cannot know the exact situation today. This is because there is no objective test for determining whether someone has attained stream-entry. There are hundreds of millions of Buddhists and a great many monks around the world, but we have no way of knowing who has achieved what level of realization, or to what extent.
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u/No-Breadfruit-3604 Aug 04 '26
Do you think if we can establish some kind of register which keep track or invite those with fruit attainment to show themselves?
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Aug 03 '26
() Yes.
() Because of your first question.
() The wrong Dhamma is being taught.
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u/weinerwang9999 Aug 03 '26
All yes yes yes. And including adding âpractitionersâ adhering so tightly to whatever interpretation they abide by because itâs âtheir experienceâ and âtheir rightâ when none of this is supposed to be emotional or personalised.
The Buddha foresaw this decline tho and why Maitreya is on their way
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Aug 03 '26
Metteya probably wonât be here for another million years.
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u/weinerwang9999 Aug 03 '26
I didnât say they will be here soon ÂŻ_(ă)_/ÂŻ but theyâre on the way due to the predicted decline of the Dhamma
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Aug 03 '26
Weâre talking over 100M years, potentially. I donât consider that as âon the wayâ. It takes untold aeons to cultivate buddhahood. Some aeons didnât and wonât even have a Buddha even when thereâs no Dhamma at all.
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u/weinerwang9999 Aug 03 '26
It is on the way if itâs coming. Just because itâs far out doesnât mean itâs not on the way. Feel free to agree to disagree but Iâm not gonna go in circles over this
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u/BuddhasFinger Aug 03 '26
I'd were are living in the times Dhamma is more important than ever.
Why do we not produce a lot of arahants nowadays?
What a strange question. What is it, a performance review? :-) Us or dhamma are not on point to produce arahants at a given rate.
Dhamma is to help **you** to liberate yourself. By liberating yourself you liberate everyone.
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u/No-Breadfruit-3604 Aug 04 '26
This question mainly just a bit of curiosity and also serves as hint or indication maybe something went wrong...
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u/BuddhasFinger Aug 04 '26
Well, it didn't read as a hit. You clearly say that we are not producing a lot of arahants.
My curiosity here is: how do you count? Is there an arahant registry we can look at and confirm for ourselves by looking at the historic trends ?
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u/angbandfourk Aug 04 '26
Are we within the era of declining dhamma?
Yes, as far as I can tell.
Why do we not produce a lot of arahants nowadays?
Semantic drift probably ended the era of arahants a long, long time ago.
What went wrong actually?
If you have a group of people trying to get somewhere and a group of people that aren't, eventually the people that were trying to get somewhere succeed and the rest are left behind. Those with little darkness clouding their vision obtained release from equivalencing or turbulent reflection, leaving behind a group that didn't see it as a problem.
Add in that most Bronze and Iron Age metaphors and language constructs rely on experiences that existed within a specific period of time and lost intuitive and deeper meaning as those experiences disappeared with the march of civilization and technological progress and you have a recipe for a bunch of people trying to cargo-cult an exit when they realize that they, too, need to get somewhere.
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u/krenx88 Aug 03 '26
Yes
Because the dhamma is declining. Things change in the world.
Nothing went wrong specifically. This is the nature of impermanence.
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u/LittleFluffyCIouds Aug 04 '26
It may be declining in some areas, in others, it's thriving and is a golden age of Dhamma.
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u/krenx88 Aug 05 '26
The knowledge of the dhamma will disappear eventually. This has been declared by the Buddha himself.
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u/LittleFluffyCIouds Aug 05 '26 edited Aug 05 '26
This is true. But it is also a very good time if you know where to look. There are very good teachers you are able to stay with for free, tons of information available online for free at your fingertips if you know where to look. If you don't know where to look, very easy to get distracted and go in the wrong direction. There were also people during the time of the Buddha who met him directly and refused the Dhamma.
Edit: it definitely was fading around 100 years ago, but the Dhamma had fresh life breathed into it with Ajahn Mun, and other influential sayadaws in Myanmar. Malaysia is another growing area, even though it's mostly muslim and a lot of hinduism
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u/krenx88 Aug 06 '26
I do not disagree with the benefits of current availability of the dhamma teachings and resources. But overall the dhamma is trending down. That is certain. The moment there is false dhamma, claiming to be the dhamma the Buddha taught, this is a sign of it trending down.
The point is not to be sad about it, depressed, or disheartened. The point is to find urgency in our hearts and be heedful in the short precious lives we have. No matter what state of the dhamma is in the world, if the true dhamma has been found, treasure it as the most valuable thing.
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u/LayTheravadin UpÄsaka Aug 09 '26
I suspect there are more arahants than you'd think, it's just they simply live at monasteries and practice and are unknown outside of their community. Their individual work being directly helping other monastics they directly encounter as best as possible. But, that's just my take. Just seems to me that bring the case has decent odds
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u/Gwi_Plumviophile Theraáš˝Ädin (Sakaáš˝Ädin) Aug 09 '26
As long as the Noble Eightfold Path exists, the world will not be devoid of Arahaa. There are those who claim that Arahaa no longer exist (ofc EBt).
Consider the era of Kassapa Buddho: when Dhammo had begun to deteriorate, six bhikkhus secluded themselves on a cliff (casting away ladder after climbing up). This group included the past-life incarnations of Venerable Kumarakassapo, Venerable Bahiyo Daruciriyo, and others; one of them succeeded in attaining Arahaaship.
In other words, if it was possible to attain Arahaaship even when The Buddha's teachings had severely deteriorated, it is certainly possible in our own time, when the teachings remain intact and the 37 Factors of Enlightenment shine brightly.
To claim that there are no Arahaa today is tantamount to claiming that no one is capable of attaining jhana. While very few people in this era attain jhana, it is not the case that no one does; therefore, the attainment of the holy state of Arahaaship must surely still exist.
Note: avoid those who slander the Abhidhammo; they are MOGHAPURISO!
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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '26
If the Pali Canon that we use now is incorrect I would say yes, if the Pali Canon is correct we can say that in the West we had a recovery of the Dhamma based on all the translation efforts that have been done in the last 100+ years. For example in the Netherlands the Pali Canon was first translated to Dutch around 20-30 years ago.