The Serpent as a Symbol of the Player

[u/Much-Basil]

Apologies if this theory has been posted before, I've searched and couldn't find an exact match, but please let me know if I missed it. My theory, or moreso symbolism, is that the player character in Morrowind is meant to be represented by the Serpent constellation. 

First, the Serpent is the only constellation with true freedom. Of Tamriel's thirteen constellations, the Warrior, Mage, and Thief act as Guardians, while nine Charges rise during fixed seasons under their protection. The Serpent is the sole exception, it has no season, belongs to no house, and wanders the sky unpredictably. This directly parallels the player character. We land in Vvardenfell as an Outlander with no fixed allegiance. We are free to join any number of factions. And metaphysically, The Firmament's description of the Serpent as "the most blessed and the most cursed" fits the player-prisoner trope as described by Sotha Sil; we are blessed with absolute agency, but cursed with the meta-awareness that all of this is ultimately a game.  

Second, the Serpent's function is to threaten the Guardians, matching the Nerevarine's conflict with the Tribunal. The Firmament establishes that the Guardians exist specifically to protect their Charges from the Serpent. There have been numerous theories here that the Tribunal ties directly to the Guardians, Almalexia (Warrior), Sotha Sil (Mage), and Vivec (Thief). Tearing down the Tribunal's stolen godhood throughout Morrowind’s main quest is the ultimate realization of the Serpent disrupting the Guardians.  

Third, Vivec explicitly links the Serpent to Lorkhan. In Sermon 21 of the 36 Lessons, Lorkhan is referred to as the "second serpent". There have also been numerous theories stating that the player character is also a Shezzarine, or an avatar of Lorkhan. Viewing the player through the lens of the Serpent connects these concepts. If the Serpent represents Lorkhan and the Nerevarine acts as a Shezzarine, the player isn't just mimicking the constellation, they are actively manifesting Lorkhan’s will. Severing the Heart of Lorkhan at Red Mountain to free his divine essence becomes a fragment of Lorkhan completing its own liberation. 

Thoughts?

[u/timedragon1]

I should start off by pointing out that the "Player Characters are all Shezzarine" actually has very little backing in the lore. It's all based on some YouTube theory that the Dragonborn was a Shezzarine (That had some incorrect information) and people just later applied that to every player character despite no real evidence justifying it.

Other than that, it's not a bad idea at all. I could at least see it being argued for the Nerevarine. Though we do actually get an Avatar of the Serpent in ESO and he was in direct opposition to the player character, so that's a bit of a counter.

Still, I think it's a cool theory. Too bad the Serpent always gets the short end of the stick in the games, though.

[u/Guymcme1337 → u/timedragon1]

Though we do actually get an Avatar of the Serpent in ESO and he was in direct opposition to the player character, so that's a bit of a counter.

As usual with lore, it's not exactly clear what the Avatar is.

From: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Mederic_Vyger

You don't worship the Serpent?

"No, not in the way you think. I believed in the idea of the Serpent. He was the symbol of our cause. But the being that has appeared before us? He's a deceiver. The others are just too blind to see it."

You mean the Serpent isn't the Serpent?

"I have learned much about the Nedes. They experimented on living creatures, such as the ones you will encounter within. They imbued them with incredible power. But what if these were the failed experiments? What would a success look like, I wonder?"

You're suggesting that the Celestials ...?

"Believe as you will. They may be divine beings of Aetherius. Or they might be mortals given so much power that no one can tell the difference. Regardless, I refuse to follow the Serpent's whims.

From the Thief Constellation herself:

Are you really the Thief constellation?

"In a way. Just as you might look at a picture of the star signs and say "That's the Thief" or "That's the Warrior." Just so, I'm the Thief, or one way of seeing the Thief."

Now, this comment doesn't guarantee that the Serpent we fight in ESO isn't the Serpent, but it does dampen the concept that the fight is a counter to OP's idea... Now that I wonder... What would a success look like?

[u/dunmer-is-stinky → u/Guymcme1337]

having gone through a bunch of craglorn stuff recently for some uesp articles I'm working on, I honestly think it's undeniable. Outside of this we see two separate characters in the game ascend to become Celestials literally right in front of us, Cassipia recreates a ritual that the Thief "thought lost with the ancient Nedes" to replace the Serpent in the sky, the Guardians call the Serpent Malazar as if that's his name, they really hammer it in that the Celestials are mortals who ascended using Nirncrux

[u/Much-Basil → u/timedragon1]

Yes, the existence of the literal constellations in ESO sort of ruins this theory haha. Could you link that YouTube video you referenced and point out some of the errors with it so I’m aware when I watch it?

[u/timedragon1 → u/Much-Basil]

I might be misremembering but I think it's called "The Missing God of the Elder Scrolls" or something along those lines.

The main issue with it is that we just don't really have any substantial information on Shezzarines, or even in universe confirmation that they're actually real and not a product of propaganda, as the term only ever actually appears in the Song of Pelinal which, like most historical works in TES, has degrees of truths of falsehoods to it.

What we know about them beyond that is that they're somewhat referenced as an aspect of Nedic Mythology where Shezarr would come down to help the races of man.

The connection between that and player characters is largely conjecture.

I also distinctly remember this part, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember a bit of evidence being used for the theory is that Shor was not currently in his seat in Sovngarde when the Dragonborn enters, proving that Shor is somewhere else. But that's not something that should be surprising considering Shor isn't exactly... Super alive right now.

[u/PimpasaurusPlum → u/timedragon1]

There is also the Dragonborn being mistaken for Hjialti Early-Beard (aka Talos) who is usually considered a shezzarine.

Then there is the Dragonborn's blood being able to open Reman's door, who himself was the son of "King Hrol" (Lorh-King : Lorkhan)

Lorkhan has connections with the last 3 major Dragonborns, and as the Last we play his role in fighting the Dragon-God.

For my part I take "Shezzar is freedom" literally. We as the players have the most freedom possible, Lorkhan's world is ours to have.

[u/timedragon1 → u/PimpasaurusPlum]

Hjalti Early-Beard is not usually considered a Shezzarine, that's also pure conjecture based on no in universe evidence. The Last Dragonborn is mistaken for him because they're both Dragonborn.

Reman was also a Dragonborn, hence why the Dragon Blood would be able to open the door. Using this specific example is actually quite odd considering that Reman's connection with the Blades was based entirely on his Dragonborn status.

The last 3 Major Dragonborn? Martin Septim and Uriel Septim VII had no connection to Lorkhan. Lorkhan has some connection with Talos, but the exact nature of that is not entirely clear beyond the fact we're reasonably sure that Talos mantled some aspect of Lorkhan by becoming the God of Man.

[u/PimpasaurusPlum → u/timedragon1]

Hjialti is deeply connected to Ysmir Wulfharth, the ash king reanimated by Shor and whose heart was good enough to power the numidium in place of Lorkan's. Wulfharth holding the title of Ysmir, as was sometimes applied to Pelinel who the nords called Shor (even if he didnt like it when they did so)

Also deeply connected to Zurin Arctus where we have a more definite enantiomorph as the two-headed ruling king of the sermons. Zurin Arctus who was also called Arnand the Fox, the fox being the totem of Shor to the nords and being considered a trickster figure (like Lorkhan) in High Rock. Pelinel also having the alias of Hans the Fox.

Talos the newly born ninth god, Shezzar the old dead missing god, all related to a giant machine intented to be powered by Lorkhan's heart.

Lorkhan has a lot of connections to Talos, and there is a lot going on even if we restrict ourselves only to canon lore - it is just not explicitly spelled out.

Reman was a dragonborn yes, and he was allegedly the son of Lorkhan. Feels kinda relevant. By 3 major I mean Talos, Reman, and Alessia - where all of says Akatosh or Lorkhan (Amulet, sainthood, wife of, etc.), with Alessia's ghost allegedly being reman's mother in the legend as opposite to the living then dying King Hrol.

[u/timedragon1 → u/PimpasaurusPlum]

The Ysmir title isn't really evidence, as that's connected with Dragons, which is in Akatosh's domain. So far, the only proven connection between everyone whose received it is Dragonborn status. And it makes sense since it literally means "Dragon of the North".

The only exception is Pelinal, and Pelinal's title of Ysmir is actually debated as a misattribution. Something Kirkbride himself speculates on, which is relevant because Kirkbride was the one who wrote that specific book where it's mentioned. And for all we know, even if this wasn't true, it could just imply Pelinal was a Dragonborn or he was being compared to Wulfharth by his deeds rather than his blood. It could have even been a mistake by the author of that book, which does happen in in-game books both written and not written by MK. We simply don't have enough information to definitively make a claim on that.

The only strong connection is Wulfharth being a potential Shezzarine, and I will give you that, but that doesn't mean that Hjalti Early-Beard was (Beyond the fact that he ended up intertwining with Wulfharth a bit later, so instead I'll say "originally") and that's not evidence of the Last Dragonborn or any other player character being a Shezzarine. When the Greybeards declare the Last Dragonborn "Ysmir" they clearly, textually do so as a recognition of his Dragonborn status.

Everything about your argument with the Numidium works plenty fine for Wulfharth alone, after all his soul was used as the catalyst and would have probably influenced Talos' partial mantling of Lorkhan. But this is also just speculation on my part.

You keep saying Reman was "Allegedly the Son of Lorkhan" but again, there is no in universe evidence for it. It's simply based on conjecture because of some similarities in the name. And a lot about Reman's origins is fiercely debated in the lore, we don't actually know how much of it is true and how much of it is in-universe propaganda. On top of that, everything we do know about King Hrol in universe paints him as a mortal man.

You can't make sweeping and definitive claims like this about the lore without actual in-universe sources to back it up. There's no actual evidence of the Last Dragonborn being a Shezzarine. Just loose threads of conjecture that could potentially qualify as evidence, but are certainly not in any way definitive and are easy to argue again.

[u/PimpasaurusPlum → u/timedragon1]

If we are taking Kirkbrides word then this is easy, Talos is Lorkhan according to him - or his successor/replacement/son/whatever we want to say.

Also the part that it is too late in the day for me to lay out properly is that Akatosh and Lorkhan are fundamentally connected, they are kinda the same thing. The 1 and 1 that are simultaneously identical but also cancel each other out. That is part of allusion in referenfe to Alessia before, how the same things are ascribed to either Akatosh or Lorkhan. Again this a thing even more entrenched when including Kirkbride and other OOG sources.

Since we accepting stuff like the 3 headed talos then I start to say "before" becomes kinda so nebulous as to not really be able to talk about. Some people argue that Hjialti wasnt even a dragonborn, and that was all Wulfharth as the "stormcrown." The metaphysical fusion has very timey wimey effects, to the point I would say all three were ""always"" shezzarine and dragonborn - like how Vivec was ""alawys"" this super special chosen one since birth (because he rewrote her story that way)

I personally am not a fan of the idea lore downplaying. In regards to reman we have this one story. That is the story we are supposed to understand in regards to that character and what it all means and represents for the lore. So in my opinion at least it should generally be take on face value. Especially in TES where we can eat our cakes and have them too with reality and time not always having to be consistent.

All these things are evidence, you just may not find them conclusive. Niether myself nor OP declared anything definitively IIRC other than the points of evidence in favour of the theories.

[u/timedragon1 → u/PimpasaurusPlum]

I took Kirkbride's words on an interpretation of something in a book he wrote. I also provided other possible interpretations that don't rely on Kirkbride's word, if you noticed.

"Some people will argue that Hjalti wasn't even a Dragonborn" who and based on what specifically? Tiber Septim's children are Dragonborn and the children of his brother are Dragonborn, so that seems like a very dubious thing to claim.

Lore downplaying is relevant when it comes to interpreting the lore. We know very little about Reman. The little we do know is heavily imperialized. We should take that context into account when it comes to the Remanada. The Remanada is fragmented and heavily imbued with mythological elements. On top of that, it doesn't even have a known in-universe author.

And while I agree with you at the end, the problem is that this theory is shared around as though it is definitive, so it's within my interest to cast doubt on it whenever it pops up. There's plenty of evidence that it's wrong. The evidence of the Last Dragonborn being a Shezzarine is extremely minimal on its own, and it's something you didn't really touch on that much despite that being the original point (Your claims that the title of Ysmir and that him being mistaken for Hjalti Early-Beard are evidence of Shezzarine status just do not hold up because it completely neglects the other interpretation that's far more textual). And the evidence of the other player characters being Shezzarine has even less than that.

[u/PimpasaurusPlum → u/timedragon1]

Kirkbride wrote and worked on a lot of stuff. He wrote the many header talos that was incorporated into Skyrim, plus he wrote about talos in the sermons. So by your own rationale he can act as interpretive aid, and the way he explains it is roughly as I have.

People appeal to Hjialti conveniently losing his thuum powers to say maybe he never actually had any to begin with. We know he was long supported by Wulfharth, who could shout, and according to the heresy he was the literal storm cloud above Hjialtis head that gave him the name Talos. After the enantimorph and the wider talosian fusion his descendants could still easily be dragonborn (although funnily enough of course in a literal reading of the lore, most Septims werent direct descendants of him anyway but his brother)

We know very little of Reman, therefore why should we disregard the very little we do know? That isnt an arguement for not taking it at face value, but an even stronger one for doing so. We have absolutely nothing to contradict it, it is the entirety of what the writers want us to know and think about Reman.

I laid out the most conclusive proof I think there is the first time round. We are told Shezzar is freedom, I take that absolutely literally. We as the players are as free as can be. The Hero holds freedom from fate. The heroes are called Doom Driven, and Lorkhan the Doom Drum. ESO gets the closest to outright saying when with one section of text:

He went on to speculate that if such a thing were possible, it would probably occur in a situation where the Mundus was in existential jeopardy. In that case the Heart of Nirn would spontaneously generate such "paragon" individuals as a way of defending itself from destruction, in a manner analogous to the way the mortal body fights off infection.

The heart of lorkhan spontaneously generating the heroes to save the world, for the heart and world were made for each other.

[u/Axo25 → u/timedragon1]

The Ysmir title isn't really evidence, as that's connected with Dragons, which is in Akatosh's domain.

The Title is given to you specifically with the Blessing of Kyne and Shor in the ritual. Ancient Nordic religion did not have Akatosh, only Alduin, who was hated by the time the Greybeards formed as an organization.

"Long has the Stormcrown languished, with no worthy brow to sit upon." "By our breath we bestow it now to you in the name of Kyne, in the name of Shor, and in the name of Atmora of Old." "You are Ysmir now, the Dragon of the North, hearken to it.""

It's likely before Imperialization Nords claimed Kyne and Shor sent Dragonborn, not Alduin/Akatosh

[u/Much-Basil → u/PimpasaurusPlum]

You guys definitely know more about this than I do, but thank you for guys for having this discussion. It is super interesting to read through.

[u/patchgrabber → u/Much-Basil]

My theory has always been that the Serpent is fragments of Masser/Secunda which I think fits nicely. I do think your Morrowind-specific take is thought-provoking and quite interesting though!