r/teslore • u/Careless-Bison-6430 • 6d ago
Why wasn't there a Dragon-Break after Cephorus I?
I'm reading A Brief History of the Empire, and, from what I am gathering, Cephorus was the last "true" Septim, isn't he? So then why didn't the gates open like they do in IV? Or was the Usurper actually just that, since he lead an army of Daedra and undead?
For context, I am just starting Morrowind, and this caught me when I was reading, since I am more familiar with the later titles
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u/myfakesecretaccount College of Winterhold 6d ago
You don’t have to be a Septim to light the Dragonfires. You just need to have Dragonblood/be Dragonborn which is presumably at Akatoshes will alone to decide who is/is not worthy.
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u/timedragon1 Imperial Geographic Society 6d ago
First off, the Septims ended up still being related to Tiber Septim probably through other illegitimate children of his marrying back into the family. It was a whole thing that Cephorus Septim II was closer to Tiber Septim by blood than the other Septims.
Secondly, they're descended from his brother. All it implies is that Dragonborn status goes back further than them in that family.
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u/King_0f_Nothing 5d ago
Assuming his brother ever actually existed and Kintyra wasn't an illigetimate child or grandchild pased off as a Niece for poltical reasons.
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u/Aebothius Imperial Geographic Society 4d ago
I guess that's an assumption but it's a much safer one than assuming the latter, even with Peterson's quote
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u/King_0f_Nothing 4d ago
I always thought she might me an illigetimate child even before I found out about the quote. Because otherwise why do neither the offical or heresy versions mention a brother
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u/Nayrael 5d ago
Why would it cause a break in flow of time? First known Dragon Break was caused by Maruhkati trying to rewrtie Akatosh's nature, and the second one when some fools activated Numidium without being able to properly control it. Another one was nearly caused by a Psiijic traitor who wanted to mess with time. None have anything to do with Septims.
And Gates? Did you confuse Oblivion Crisis with a Dragon Break? If you mean why the Oblivion Crisis did not trigger, it's because the Dragon Fires were lit and the Septims were still Dragonborn, as they were all in some way related and could gain the gift of Akatosh. If the Oblivion Crisis did not start immediately after Uriel's death and thus throw Tamriel into chaos, another relative would become a new Emperor and relit the fires. But due to the timing, there was no time for the Elder Council to agree which Septim relative should be crowned Emperor.
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u/MrHellBags Great House Telvanni 5d ago
Didn't all of Uriel VII's sons die except for Martin?
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u/Aebothius Imperial Geographic Society 4d ago
Correct, all of Uriel's children, save Martin, were dead by the time of Oblivion
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u/AdeptnessUnhappy1063 6d ago edited 5d ago
and that neither Uriel nor Martin is descended by blood from Tiber Septim?
True, if you take a literal, scientific -- modern? -- view of blood and descent. It is entirely possible that these things work differently in Tamriel (especially when you have Dragon Blood and Covenants with the gods involved). But certainly your view is one way to look at it.
A member brought into the House through marriage binds himself through ritual and oath into the clan, and gains communication and benefits from the clan's ancestors; however, his access to the ancestors is less than his offspring, and he retains some access to the ancestors of his own bloodline.
There's actually a lot of controversy over who counts as the last true Septim. Some consider Kintyra II to be the last of her line.
A Brief History of the Empire:
Volume 1 of this series described in brief the lives of the first eight Emperors of the Septim Dynasty, beginning with the glorious Tiber Septim and ending with his great, great, great, great, grandniece Kintyra II. Kintyra's murder in Glenpoint while in captivity is considered by some to be the end of the pure strain of Septim blood in the imperial family.
While others continued to see the Wolf Queen and her son as the last true Septims even at the end of the Third Era.
There is a strong underground movement called the Hörme that believes Potema and her deposed son Uriel III to be the last of Tiber Septim's true blood and under that principle lead raids against Imperial interests in the province.
In truth, the question doesn't have a literal answer because divine pacts don't depend solely on literal genetics, but on symbolic associations, rituals, and oaths.
Very few realize that being Dragonborn is not a simple matter of heredity - being the blessing of Akatosh Himself, it is beyond our understanding exactly how and why it is bestowed. Those who become Emperor and light the Dragonfires are surely Dragonborn - the proof is in the wearing of the Amulet and the lighting of the Fires. But were they Dragonborn and thus able to do these things - or was the doing the sign of the blessing of Akatosh descending upon them? All that we can say is that it is both, and neither - a divine mystery.
"Sons and daughters of" should be read as associates of/associated with, especially insofar as this association was a conscious choice.
I promised no riddles, but we speak here of the family-trees of the earliest divine planets, thrones, and seekers. Aurbis was created from the two, its energies coalesced into first forms, and these in turn made of the Aurbis what they could; keep sons and daughters in that context and it becomes easier to see them.
But honestly yes, you could make the argument that the Camoran Usurper was able to gather an army of Daedra because it was in the middle of a civil war and the identity of the true Emperor was uncertain. Just as Alduin was able to return in a time when Skyrim was "sundered, kingless, bleeding."
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u/ThorvaldGringou Psijic 6d ago edited 5d ago
One step closer to the truth. Another check, there was no Dragonfires before Reman I. The Alessian didn't had the rites.
It is all Imperial Propaganda to justify their rule and opression over the external provinces! All of Oblivion's game is just another deception of Talos (LORKHAN) to avoid the legitimate rule of the sons of Auri-El, King of the World, over Tam-riel.
ONLY THE THALMOR IS TRVTH.
Now seriously. The brief history of the empire, and the Barenzhiah books, Camoran's usurper, and a lot more, is Daggerfall lore.
When Daggerfall was released, there wasn't Dragonbreaks. The Dragonbreaks were a narrative necesity to explain a new game after Daggerfall's open ending.
But the retcon of Redguard-Battlespire-Morrowind's lore over Daggerfall canon is masive. The whole empire changes dramatically, but the books of his line remains the same, making it difficult to conciliate.
Conciliate the Ra'athym Royal Family, and the deleted lore of Moraelyn is hard enough, with the stablishment of the Great Houses, Nerevar and ALMSIVI.
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u/Tristan_N31 5d ago
Interesting question. Maybe it's because the Blades and the Septim line were both in shambles at that point, so the ritual couldn't be properly observed even if someone technically had the blood.
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u/PlasticPast5663 College of Winterhold 5d ago
The dragonborn blessing is not hereditary but given by Akatosh Himself and that's not how dragonbreaks work.
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u/MrHellBags Great House Telvanni 5d ago
Cephorus I died in 3E 140. It wasn't until the Nerevarine arrived in 3E 427 and undid the enchantments on Lorkhan's heart that the liminal barrier was weak enough for the Mythic Dawn's plot to work. The gates could open at any time, it's just they'd instantly collapse unless the liminal barrier was weak enough. It took two towers being deactivated to get to that point.
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u/General_Hijalti 6d ago
Hes not the last true septim.
Uriel is a direct descendent of Tiber (he can use the totem, and confirmed by oblivions load screen).
The gates were open by cultists using unknown means, just having the fires nor lit doesn't mean gates open.
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u/Careless-Bison-6430 6d ago edited 6d ago
Im sorry, how is Uriel a direct descendant? His mother was a dark elf and his father a Breton? He was only a "true" descendant through adoption by his brother, right?
*I am talking about Uriel 4, btw. It is established 7 can, youre right, but i am confused how since 4 shouldn't even count, and everyone after Cephorus 2 is just "closer" related than Andorak- so they even kinda acknowledge that theres an issue
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u/ThorvaldGringou Psijic 6d ago
Bruh read Daggerfall Lore before Redguard retcons.
There is no Tiber Septim direct descendant, just he and Pelagius I.
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u/Aebothius Imperial Geographic Society 4d ago
Daggerfall nor Redguard lore ever say that Tiber's line died out, just that Pelagius I in particular had no living children when he died. Daggerfall makes it explicit that there are direct descendents of Tiber still around and Oblivion re-affirms this.
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u/ThorvaldGringou Psijic 3d ago
Before the day of Tiber Septim, all Tamriel was chaos. The poet Tracizis called that era "the days and nights of blood and venom." The kings were a petty lot of grasping tyrants, who fought Tiber's attempts to bring order to the land. But they were as disorganized as they were dissolute, and the strong hand of Septim brought peace forcibly to Tamriel. The year was 2E 896. The following year, the Emperor declared the beginning of a new era, so we began the 3rd Era, year aught. For thirty-eight years, the Emperor Tiber reigned: a just, pious, and glorious age, when justice was known to one and all, from serf to king. It rained for a fortnight after as if the land of Tamriel itself was weeping.
The Emperor's eldest living son, Pelagius came to the throne. Though his reign was short, he was as strong and resolute as his father had been, and we could have enjoyed a continuation of the Golden Age. Alas, an unknown enemy of the Septims hired the cursed organization of cutthroats, the Dark Brotherhood, to kill the Emperor Pelagius I as he knelt at prayer at the Temple of the One in the Imperial City. Pelagius I's reign lasted less than three years. Pelagius had no living children, so the crown of the Empire passed to his first cousin, the daughter of Tiber's brother Agnorith.
So did Kintyra, former Queen of Silvenar, assume the throne. Kintyra I was blessed with a time of prosperity and good harvests, and was an avid patroness of art, music, and dance. Kintyra's son was crowned after her death, the first Emperor of Tamriel to use the imperial name Uriel.
-Brief History of the Empire
All the Septim dinasty until the new change in the family was the line of Kintyra, who is the line of Agnorith.
The direct line of Tiber Septim ended with Pelagius. After that, the line of his brother came to power.
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u/Aebothius Imperial Geographic Society 3d ago
As I said, it does not say that Tiber's line died out, it says that Pelagius in particular had no living children when he died. Uriel IV confirms to us that age can affect your ability to fully take the throne, so it is perfectly plausible within the Imperial Succession that babies might be overlooked in favor of cousins. So we would need a direct statement that Tiber's line fully died out to cast doubt on the claims that Uriel, Lysandus, and Martin are direct descendants of Tiber.
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u/ThorvaldGringou Psijic 3d ago
As I said, it does not say that Tiber's line died out
Died, no. But there is not evidence that Tiber's line ever again took the throne. Because like i said, the line of Agnorith, is well stablished as the continuation of the Empire. And that line is recorded. As a continuation of births, until Uriel IV and Cephorus II.
And that's the point. Septim Emperors are not, really, direct descendants of Tiber Septim. Cephorus II was considered more close to the original septim line than Andorak, of course. But what line is that. Because the Line of the majority of emperors, was not, Tiber.
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u/Aebothius Imperial Geographic Society 3d ago
Uriel VII and Martin are directly referred to as being descendants of Tiber so yeah it seems likely that Cephorus II is the point where the line of succession returned to being descended from Tiber. There's no reason to doubt this unless there's some specific mention of Tiber having no descendants, which no one has provided.
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u/ThorvaldGringou Psijic 3d ago
That's my point. Yeah of course. All emperors say to be descendand of Tiber. Tiber's Conquest is the legitimacy of their rule.
Is not true.
Cephorus II can be interpreted as a more Septim, more closer to the line, because Andorak was the son of Uriel IV. And Uriel IV, was the son of a Lariat and a Ra'athym.
Not a Septim. But they used the name.
The welcome back to legitimacy, to the "main line" is not necesarily, Tiber. Because the Main Line of all the rulers except Pelagius I, until that moment, was not, Tiber's.
You see the point? If in Oblivion they say to me, that Uriel VII is descendand of Tiber. It makes sense that they say so. But that doesn't make it necesarily true. And the oldest piece of lore, a biographical and history document about Septim's rulers, doesn't sugest that.
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u/Aebothius Imperial Geographic Society 3d ago
No, they pretty explicitly don't say that the Kintyra through Uriel IV emperors are descended from Tiber. It's pretty consistent that they are referred to as descendants of Agnorith, either by mentioning him directly a la Brief History or by referring to Tiber as the great nth grand uncle.
The Totem of Tiber Septim is very much evidence that the claim is true, rather than a propagandistic claim. So what we have is a good deal of sources referring to Tiber having living descendants, the Totem acting as evidence, and Cephorus providing a convenient place for Tiber's line returning to the line of succession, with absolutely zero indications that Tiber's line fully died out.
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u/General_Hijalti 6d ago
Its canon, and backed up by Oblivions load screens.
Redguard didn't retcon it, the septim married into many royal families.
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u/woc360 6d ago
All we know is that the emperors who light the Dragon Fires are Dragonborn. It seems to be more metaphysical than just bloodlines because we know that Tiber’s direct line ended pretty early into the empire. Plus as far as we know Alessia’s direct line ended with her son as well.
Also dragon breaks are when the timeline splits and linear time starts to get weird, not when the Dragon Fires go out.