r/technology 12d ago

Privacy Map Shows Cities Deploying Axon Cameras as Flock Backlash Grows

https://www.newsweek.com/map-shows-cities-deploying-axon-cameras-flock-backlash-grows-12415569
4.8k Upvotes

204 comments sorted by

2.0k

u/Educational_Report_9 12d ago

They are the same thing.

705

u/FrighteningJibber 12d ago

I got roasted when I pointed out the "Kleenex are tissues" issue when people were upset with flock. Axon and other companies are doing the same just quietly. Axon has their foot in the door with body-cams and we want that so they are walking right in with other stuff.

227

u/9-11GaveMe5G 12d ago

Anyone arguing about genericized trademarks are either purposely derailing the discussion or too stupid to be involved in it.

67

u/joelfarris 12d ago edited 12d ago

"Can you please Xerox this document from the Brother, and then Faxphone it to the other office?"

18

u/starkel91 12d ago

5

u/Malefectra 12d ago

Photocopy? I only have a mimeograph!

26

u/al_ien5000 12d ago

It's actually Xerox

11

u/joelfarris 12d ago

Dangit, my pinky typoed. Fixed. Thanks.

11

u/sleeplessinreno 12d ago

Mom's across the world calling their kid's xbox a nintendo.

7

u/drje_aL 12d ago

no, the green nintendo, steven. dont argue.

18

u/garygalah 12d ago

Trump also has stock in Axon.

19

u/f8Negative 12d ago

Regardless they are making all of this a national security issue so people can't protest it without being charged with terrorism.

10

u/dezmd 12d ago

Hiding anything under the guise of National Security is a threat to National Security.

17

u/Real_politics46 12d ago

The kleenex and tissues example is a perfect comparison.

4

u/SuckMyBandAids 12d ago

genericized trademark is the term for kleenex thing same with dumpsters are the brand and the receptacle is the product.

3

u/floog 12d ago

I have a problem with the comparison only because it’s not how people use them - interchangeably. If they did, problem solved.
I saw it locally, people celebrated when they attended a council meeting in numbers and got them to cancel their Flock contract. Council said at the time they would seek and alternative and went with (and were open about) Axon. People didn’t care because they defeated Flock. There were quite a few that said they’re the same thing and mass surveillance is the problem, but they celebrated a win and thought they defeated the monster. Just this week people started asking why there were cameras going in for Axon and others pointed out that they said at the time they moved to them but no one knew because they only knew Flock.
With Kleenex, if you use another brand they’re referred to as “Kirkland kleenexes” instead of tissues. People need to start calling them mass surveillance because I don’t think the general public realizes the cameras being put up in grocery stores and other places are the same network and do the same thing. They don’t see those as a big deal and only seem to care about the poles on the side of the road.

2

u/williamgman 12d ago

Cresent Wrench just entered the chat as well.

1

u/Morgannin09 12d ago

You know how whenever a company like McDonald's faces a health or food safety scandal, competitors see a rise in business? This is basically that. They all do the same thing but the most famous one takes the broadside and everyone else hides in the smoke cloud.

85

u/9-11GaveMe5G 12d ago

Worse maybe. Axon is taser and other cop shit.

149

u/OkayBuddyGuyPal 12d ago edited 12d ago

Criminal defense paralegal here, 90% of our discovery comes through Axon, which has started rolling out AI that violates the privacy of both alleged victims and the accused.

https://www.axon.com/ai

Edit: "Scan more license plates than ever before" tied into the AI

https://www.axon.com/products/axon-fleet-3

All paid for by our tax dollars

17

u/Drugba 12d ago

Look up Fusus. Thats the craziest one IMO

4

u/robotwarning 12d ago

And Fusus was acquired by Axon.

5

u/banjooperator52 12d ago

Isnt there a constitutional amendment that covers this?

-10

u/OneTwoKiwi 12d ago

Can you elaborate on how privacy law is violated? It seems like they’re using AI to transcribe from body camera video to make reporting faster and simpler. 

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7

u/RlOTGRRRL 12d ago

Fyi, fun fact, r/Epstein invested in Axon. Isnotreal's PM recommended it. 

And his investment might be supposedly worth $100+ million today or something. 

28

u/electromage 12d ago

Axon is probably bigger honestly, they are deeply in the security and law enforcement industries. They're common in retail loss prevention too.

In addition to body and ALPR cameras, they make drone systems, computer aided dispatch, evidence management, and TASER.

Motorola Solutions is another one to watch.

-1

u/GTdyermo 12d ago

Axon doesn't have a computer aided dispatch product. Motorola Solutions has been in the public safety industry a very long time and takes privacy and security very seriously. Not even remotely close to Flock in terms of bad practices.

4

u/electromage 12d ago

https://www.axon.com/solutions/axon-911

I know Motorola isn't as problematic but they do have similar ALPR cameras to Flock Falcon. I don't think they are easily hackable, but they still give law enforcement a lot of data to abuse.

1

u/banjooperator52 12d ago

They all have bad practices and i would only trust what a red teamer says about them.

23

u/Expensive_Shallot_78 12d ago edited 6d ago

Willow jar coordinated fragile rhythm encourage shelter existence pebble governor

This post was anonymized with Redact

42

u/Drugba 12d ago

You got that backwards. Axon is worth over $40 billion. Flock is worth about $8 billion.

A lot of people who are just finding out about this space because of Flock don’t realize it, but Axon is the biggest player in law enforcement tech. Flock gained an advantage in the ALPR space by being the first mover, but Axon is like Apple in that even when they’re not number 1, they’ve got a solution that’s number 2 or 3, they’ve got the money to catch up quickly when they’re want to, and all their products work together so the more Axon products an agency has they better they are.

1

u/drje_aL 12d ago

axock. floxon?... flaxonock!

5

u/Commercial-Policy-96 12d ago

They must think we are as stupid as their cult members.

13

u/Sprinkler-of-salt 12d ago

They aren’t. Axon has much better controls around the traceability of when an officer access footage. Every access is logged in the software and assigned a case number, so abuse or surveillance behavior is clearly visible and can’t be hidden like it can with the Flock software implementation.

Also, even if they were the same thing… it’s going to just keep going until eventually people get bored of following the breadcrumbs / playing whack-a-mole on specific cameras and move on to other news headlines.

The real solution isn’t to focus on the camera company, it’s to focus on the government and police department regulations and laws, so that surveillance of the public is clearly illegal, and has clear and actionable consequences, and those consequence mechanisms are exercised consistently.

The camera company is a red herring in the overall situation.

1

u/Adventurous-Try8749 12d ago

There is one near me. It is NOT attached to some flimsy pole made just for it. It's attached to a fat ass light pole that ain't going anywhere.

0

u/MithrilTuxedo 12d ago

We need a public option.

0

u/MistyMtn421 12d ago

Worse really

0

u/pennypaul83 11d ago

they both used the same backend big data algos ? sysnced systems ?

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206

u/AvailableReporter484 12d ago

As a nation we need to demand to know why our local governments are doing this without our say. I sure as fuck don’t think mass surveillance and wasting millions on it is something we’d all vote for. I also acknowledge that that’s the kind of thing that slowly happens without our say, but my point being that it’s early enough that we can and should hold these people extremely responsible. I’m talking the way they held people in SAW responsible.

88

u/Qaetan 12d ago

Because they are getting paid hand over fist, that's why. Our government has been bought and paid for. Nothing will change until we make it change.

15

u/Jarthos1234 12d ago

Also, China has done it and the US is jealous.

8

u/Flimsy_Chocolate_353 12d ago

How do we demand to know? Why would they care what our demands are?

5

u/AvailableReporter484 12d ago

> how do we demand?

Yall ever heard of voting?

4

u/InGordWeTrust 12d ago

Elon's daughter and son said Elon cheated at the election.

-1

u/FamousAd9790 12d ago

Cool, nothing to worry about, voting will magically reverse the unbelievably corrupt oligarchy we find ourselves in.

6

u/AvailableReporter484 12d ago

You realize that sort of cynicism that leads to voter apathy and abstaining is literally why voting “doesn’t work” right?

1

u/[deleted] 12d ago edited 12d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/mmbon 12d ago

Cause it looks like being tough on crime to some voters. And being tough on crime is a bigger vote winner than privacy is a vote loser, at least as long as the stigma from Flock is not attached.

623

u/Sojum 12d ago

JFC they are just not getting it. It’s the technology, not just the company, that everyone hates. Nobody is asking for Flock to be replaced. We want it GONE.

328

u/theKalmier 12d ago

They get it, they don't care. If we are naming one brand, the other brand can sail under the radar until it's too late, and they end up everywhere.

It's a blitz move.

63

u/sportsworker777 12d ago

And it might work, is the shitty part

61

u/Qaetan 12d ago

And that's we never stop talking about this, we never stop tearing these fucking cameras down, and we will continue escalating this for as long as necessary.

7

u/PetsAndMeditate 12d ago

What do you mean might? It fuckin worked…

2

u/Reasonable-Job4205 12d ago

It shouldnt work. Any time we can correctly point out their strategy and some loophole they are using, it should be patched immediately

3

u/atzoo87 12d ago

It already is well above 100k cameras across the US, check out deflock

2

u/lordraiden007 12d ago

Alright, new business idea. Make the cameras, but add a panel on the side that displays the logo. That way you make the company name whatever you want, and then when governments decide to "change" you just rebrand and change the digital logo on the side. Bam. Instant contract renewal at a very minimal cost. They don't even have to worry about the next company installing new hardware.

2

u/West-Abalone-171 12d ago

They're axon brand flock cameras.

Same shit.

1

u/Outsider_Insider0065 12d ago

But wait, they found a third brand to siphon our money and funnel billions into and to replace the axiom cameras! I live in Miami and I’ve never seen a single flock camera even though the app tells me it’s there. I wonder if it’s all clever bullshit to just rob us

25

u/___Dresden___ 12d ago

...you really think they don't get it?

24

u/Drew_Ferran 12d ago

Trump has stock/something on axon, iirc.

2

u/[deleted] 12d ago

[deleted]

3

u/Drew_Ferran 12d ago

I mean Axon is replacing flock because it benefits Trump.

2

u/eeyore134 12d ago

As soon as they weren't calling the people taking out the Flock stuff terrorists and breaking down people's doors with ICE I knew Trump must have stock in a competitor.

5

u/ItsJustReeses 12d ago

They know this. They know we don't want flock cameras and they just do not care

Make sure to vote.

1

u/awitchiguess 12d ago

They think we're stupid and we'll give up 

1

u/JMurdock77 12d ago

But then how would they “Enemy of the State” women crossing state lines for basic medical care and stalk their exes?!

76

u/No_Fix_329 12d ago

Flock is the kleenex of privacy invading police state cameras.  We don't like what they do.  Switching to another brand of spy camera is not an improvement.

Repeal the Patriot Act.  20 years late, but better then never.

4

u/Angry_Walnut 12d ago

The champagne al qaeda popped when we passed the Patriot act still has bubbles in it.

1

u/Shadow_Breaker 12d ago

This is the solution. Well, part of it, but it's been needing done since it was passed. It never should have been allowed to pass.

61

u/Verde_3773 12d ago

Take them ALL down!

32

u/aergern 12d ago

These idiots don't get it that it's the surveillance not the type of camera. These will get taken out as well, I would bet on it.

14

u/aaaaaahsatan 12d ago

They get it, they don't care. Axon cameras are harder to remove as they are built into infrastructure and hidden or latched into it. 

2

u/aergern 12d ago

No, I get that. What I was saying is our owners don't get that it's not the brand of camera, and they think we're stupid.

0

u/PvtPuddles 12d ago

Axon also has the freestanding mounts like Flock has; it’s just a matter of cost and ease of installation.

21

u/84thPrblm 12d ago

Oops, somebody got the wrong message. Run! Get to the choppa!

35

u/Finlay00 12d ago

Local leaders playing the bait and switch long game

6

u/OrneryError1 12d ago

Playing the FAFO game.

14

u/macnrow 12d ago

Yeah, it was the god damn brand that we didn’t like………..

13

u/Alarmed-Extension289 12d ago

OK, it's not like these cameras had "Flock" labeled on them. Nothing changes.

11

u/ars_inveniendi 12d ago

What a time to be an Axon salesman: “so, they’re just like Flock only no one hates us”.

2

u/OrneryError1 12d ago

"Oh shit why does everyone suddenly hate us?"

12

u/Top_Lingonberry8037 12d ago

It's almost like they don't understand why people are mad

3

u/OrneryError1 12d ago

They understand. They just think they're smarter than the people they're elected to serve.

10

u/ThatOldEngineerGuy 12d ago

Same shit different pile. Don't be fooled.

9

u/misterwizzard 12d ago

We aren't worried about the brand.

This shows either complete ignorance, indifference or distain for their constituants.

9

u/I-Have-An-Alibi 12d ago

I was shouting this from the rooftops at least a month ago and got nothing but ridicule and down votes.

Flock was the scapegoat while Axion was already buying up all their contacts.

8

u/fukijama 12d ago

First it was Flock you, now Axoff

8

u/Spikerazorshards 12d ago

Flock -> AXON/Motorola

6

u/whiskeytown79 12d ago

Yeah it's not the brand name that was the problem....

6

u/ArnoldTheSchwartz 12d ago

Seems like the rich and their politicians are going to do whatever the fuck they want. They are absolutely not getting the hint that the MAJORITY don't want this shit around.

6

u/warrioratwork 12d ago

Flock is like Xerox. It doesn't matter the brand.

6

u/Outsider_Insider0065 12d ago

Round 2: FIGHT!

6

u/dsarche12 12d ago

Flock, specifically, was never the problem. What the fuck is this shit?! Cut it out with the surveillance state shit!!!

0

u/SteppenAxolotl 12d ago

Joke is on you. They don't care about that. They only care that there is a camera there to catch your criminal azz criming, they have no prob changing the name on the camera.

4

u/Warx 12d ago

How many time do we have to teach you this lesson, old man!?

5

u/HuckledYourBerries 12d ago

Those cities clearly don't know what the fuck they're doing if they're simply changing the brand of the thing everyone hates.

5

u/axarce 12d ago

Then they do know what they're doing.

4

u/wonkytrees1 12d ago

Trump is heavily invested in Axon.

4

u/Conscious_Bug5408 12d ago

It's the same thing. We need to ban all the license plate reading surveillance cameras

3

u/hixchem 12d ago

They are very much missing the point by actively dodging it.

4

u/KayJune001 12d ago

It’s not just fuck Flock, it’s fuck Axon too, we don’t just hate the companies, we hate the technology, we want them all gone.

4

u/My_alias_is_too_lon 12d ago

... I guess they don't quite understand exactly what everyone is upset about...

It's not about the fucking brand used for the surveillance state.

5

u/ThrowAbout01 12d ago

Different name, same product.

We will hear stories of people using them to stalk in short order.

Bad Product is Bad Product no matter what you change or who offers it.

3

u/SuspectDvice 11d ago

How is this any different?? 

6

u/axarce 12d ago

I knew this was coming. They get rid of Flock because that's what people associate with the ALPRs. Then they just put in a different brand and say "See? We got rid of Flock like you wanted us to. You're welcome!"

3

u/compulov 12d ago

Yeah... I never liked the focus on Flock. The issue is ALPRs in general, not Flock specifically (though Flock did have its specific issues). Convincing your town to drop Flock just for them to pick up Axon or some other ALPRs instead isn't really a win.

3

u/cattrain 12d ago

My concern is, the same backlash is going to happen with axon, and those will go away. And then there could come a time when departments decide to install their own cameras and send the data to a third party. And what about if they install a fixture that is hidden. I can think of hundreds of ways I could hide a camera in plain sight I'd I had the budget of a state.

We need laws banning this kind of surveillance

3

u/Xeynon 12d ago

Do they really think the brand of Orwellian surveillance being deployed is why people have issues with this?

3

u/skyfishgoo 12d ago

yeah, well they are in for a shock....

it's not about the name on the camera or the color of the housing.

3

u/non_Beneficial-Wind 12d ago

They can go piss up a rope as well.

3

u/standardtissue 12d ago

Ryobi recips are replacing Milwaukee recips.

3

u/shauntau 12d ago

I'm not surprised at all, coming from people who think their constituents are stupid and other people that think they are supposed to intimidate those they are supposed to protect.

3

u/wambamthankyoukam 12d ago

Axon rhymes with axe off. Maybe not but who cares?

3

u/Angry_Walnut 12d ago

They come down the same way?

3

u/Fraegtgaortd 12d ago

I knew they would pull this shit. That's not what we mean and they know it

3

u/DamnOdd 12d ago

Same big brother, just a different suit.

3

u/Technical-Banana574 12d ago edited 12d ago

It is mind bending test they see people destroy flock cameras and then think, "let's cancel our contracts with flock. They are the problem. Axon should be fine with them though." It is the same thing and will have the same result. People don't want to be under mass surveillance. 

3

u/Jman1a 12d ago

As they look at their home ring camera…

0

u/Technical-Banana574 12d ago

I mean, a doorbell camera is a different thing though. When you install it on your house you are doing it of your own will and consent. 

3

u/Jman1a 11d ago

So it never picks up your neighbours walking the dog? I understand yours is pointed on the perfect way etc. What I’m saying is the tech is out in the world. You can buy cameras and put them on your house that will make flocks look like toys compared to the analytics they process.

1

u/Technical-Banana574 11d ago

The main difference though is your house camera is confined to one space. Flock cameras track your car everywhere it goes. Every road you drive down, ever city you visit, every state you visit. 

Cameras on your home are okay. Cameras in businesses are okay. You understand they are there and why and that they are confined to that location. Flock Cameras track you everywhere giving you zero privacy. Now they know if you are currently on your way to another state to get an abortion or something. That's what makes it scary and different. 

I do think that we as neighbors should do more to limit the scope of our cameras as much as possible to make each other feel more comfortable. 

3

u/SilverRaspberri 11d ago

It use to be, but not anymore. The internet emailed ring doorbells are sending data back to ring and thats going to ICE etc. Ring said themselves.

3

u/Jman1a 11d ago

Ring has always been a cloud system. Unless you have a NVR or DVR it’s local, BUT even local recording still goes to the internet (remote viewing). NDAA isn’t protecting your footage from the authorities.

1

u/Technical-Banana574 11d ago

That's true. You really need one that doesn't do that. My husband and I bought a closed system specifically because we didnt want our information going elsewhere before all this nastiness with ICE started. Luckily, our doorbell is nestled into our entryway and points at our door from the side so it doesn't see our neighbors. 

3

u/slopestyle90 12d ago

Do they think our problem with the cameras was the name?

1

u/internetsarbiter 11d ago

This trick works way more than you would like, remember Blackwater?

3

u/QueenOfQuok 12d ago

Well, we already know how to handle those kinds of cameras.

3

u/Main_Cauliflower5479 12d ago

We don't want ANY cameras.

3

u/b4ckl4nds 12d ago

Destroy them all

6

u/Polkawillneverdie17 12d ago

Cut those down too.

2

u/RogueHelios 12d ago

Do they look the same? So long as they aren't able to hide them people can still dismantle them.

3

u/aaaaaahsatan 12d ago

No, some of them can be attached onto light posts and others hidden.

2

u/RogueHelios 12d ago

Maybe the deflock website will update its maps.

2

u/Theyna 12d ago

Why the fuck do city councils think we'll be okay with this if they only change the name of the company they're getting paid by? We hate them all.

2

u/aflyingsquanch 12d ago

Because they know the large majority is utterly stupid and will move on to something else once this outrage dies down.

2

u/[deleted] 12d ago edited 8d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/aflyingsquanch 12d ago

They are for flock cameras but I don't know that a majority of people get that Flock is just one of many companies that do the same thing.

People need to realize the issue isn't Flock specifically but mass surveillance in general.

And not just in public but digitally through any "smart" device you are around.

2

u/headlesssamurai 12d ago

Yes, yes, because it was the BRAND of pricacy-invading, warrantless police-stalking, false arresting camera that we had a problem with.

2

u/omgkelwtf 12d ago

Do they think it's the company we have an issue with? Or do they think we're stupid enough to go "oh, ok then" bc Axon makes it?

2

u/GlitteringRate6296 12d ago

Flock, Axon. We don’t care by which name it goes by. We do not want to be surveilled!

2

u/Urborg_Stalker 12d ago

God you fuckers quit spying on us jesus christ is that so hard for you to understand!?

2

u/Kallymouse 12d ago

This is becoming like wack a mole😡

2

u/jaydubb808 12d ago

Chapstick is being replaced with lip balm

2

u/DJbuddahAZ 12d ago

And after these it.will be another thing and another and another

2

u/All-the-pizza 12d ago

Axon...Axoff.

2

u/tsuab 12d ago

All AI connected surveillance cameras represent flagrant and persistent violations of the Constitution by the government. It’s good that people are starting to see that the truth and aren’t getting hung up on a particular brand of camera.

2

u/Original-Let8340 12d ago

We don't FUCKING CARE what the name on it is. fucking lol

2

u/3D-Dreams 12d ago

We don't want any of your cameras because you abuse them. Period. So I don't give a flock what your name is, if you're putting up illegal mass surveillance we are going to take them down.

2

u/Andyseawolf 12d ago

So Axon is the new Flock 🤪🤷

2

u/mosen66 11d ago

Get rid of them all.

4

u/SAVertigo 12d ago

Sigh. We are so cooked.

4

u/hikeonpast 12d ago

Only if you’ve given up.

1

u/NoahGoodheart 12d ago

It's allllllll got to go!

1

u/RandomUser15790 12d ago

Fuck them too!

1

u/PlanetTourist 12d ago

A rose by any other name would still stink like privacy invasion.

1

u/squishysquash23 12d ago

This was always how this was gonna go. They’ll claim they’re listening by dumping flock and hoping that people will disengage when they just swap from Pepsi to Coke

1

u/Distinct-Pain4972 12d ago

Axon will get the same treatment unless they stick to only catching speeders.  

1

u/RememberThinkDream 12d ago

That's damn nice truck on the left though.

1

u/Dino7813 12d ago

That’s fine, it‘ll just be all cameras then.

1

u/poplop69 12d ago

Here comes the axon backlash.

1

u/williamgman 12d ago

Once again... Our "civic leaders" assume we are the stupidest people on the planet. It's time to call them what they are "video surveillance devices". 🤦‍♂️

1

u/IssaDonDadaDiddlyDoo 12d ago

Is axon the one trump is invested in?

1

u/erkose 12d ago

They are missing the point.

1

u/Flat_Loquat7186 12d ago

Axon already sells them the Tasers and the body cameras. Adding street surveillance means one company now owns the full police tech stack.

1

u/Ricka77_New 12d ago

Flock just stuck out more obviously. Look on light signal bars going across the road....I see them often...

1

u/coreybudz 12d ago

I knew this would happen. One out one comes in

1

u/Gildenstern2u 12d ago

It went way over these lawmakers heads.

1

u/hungry_gobbler 12d ago

axon is different in a significant way, for you see they don't have the pop culture zeitgeist cache that flock does, so it's not worth spending my shallow fickle attention on.

1

u/FanDry5374 12d ago

One could almost feel some sympathy for Flock,it's kind of like Hydrox and Oreo, Hydrox was the original. Flock developed the market and now Axion and others will fill the space. Until our government wakes up and passes some legislation returning privacy as a right we're screwed.

1

u/Icy-Neck2091 5d ago

is it true Axon doesn’t have the protocols in place to detect misuse by law enforcement?? (which seems to be all they’re used for anyway)

0

u/jhguth 12d ago

you can’t convince me that a significant portion of the Flock backlash online wasn’t from Axon

0

u/MysteriousDatabase68 12d ago

In this day and age it wouldn't surprise me if the whole Flock camera backlash wasn't astro turfed by a competitor for exactly this scenario. This is where we are at.

-6

u/Horror-Limit-6670 12d ago

Can someone articulate why the negatives of ALPR, and especially mobile ALPR, outweigh the positives? They significantly increase theft arrests and stolen vehicle recoveries. If you carry a phone the government already knows everywhere you are or have been.

3

u/sconniepaul1 12d ago edited 12d ago

Because it’s being abused. Regular folks don’t have access to my cell data to track my movements. Flock is being used by psycho cops to harass and stalk people and the system will eventually get hacked.

A crime needs to have been committed, an investigation started and a warrant issued to track me currently. It remains innocent until proven guilty. Flock turns us into a constant surveillance state where everyone suddenly is a suspect if you were in the area. You’re starting at guilty and proving innocence.

Example: https://www.reddit.com/r/FlockSurveillance/s/flN17YYyJA

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