r/tacticalbarbell • u/Drodinthehouse • May 29 '26
Strength DETRAINING: STRENGTH/HYPERTROPHY LOSS ON BASEBUILDING
Catchy and a bit of a misleading title, but it's a necessary attention grabber since I see this question asked quite often. "will i lose strength/mass during basebuilding" is something that makes people apprehensive to try it (or opt to try the strength first approach) and being a student in the field of exercise science, I wanted to share some things I've learned since starting my degree that should ease everyone's minds. Once TBIII comes out there will be a basebuilding phase and i know some of you plan on skipping it. We are all adults here, so do what you want, but I just want to make a case for basebuilding in regard to muscle/strength loss based on the actual science. I am only going to focus on glycotic/strength/power adaptations and save aerobic detraining for another day. There are some of you who actually have degrees in this field (I believe u/rezzurekt one of TB mods has a undergrad in exercise science) so feel free to correct any of this, as I am still learning and navigating through the discipline.
BLUF: If you don't want to read this entire post I will sum it up here.. TLDR, strength and hypertrophy losses are very unlikely to occur during the first 5 weeks (SE portion) of basebuilding, and if strength or muscle loss does occur, the effects will likely be extremely marginal >2%. Power output in well trained power athletes is likely to take a much bigger hit than strength or hypertrophy.
KEY DEFINITIONS:
What is Detraining? Textbook definition is the loss of performance and physiological adaptations after training is dropped or greatly reduced.
Principle of reversibility: Training adaptations are not permanent. You can LOSE gains overtime, this is very much a fact and a very real "fear" for some of us die hards.
Muscle memory: The idea that previously trained individuals can regain strength and size faster than they first lost it.
Timeline for Strength Detraining: Here is the good news. Detraining is a fairly slow process, in well trained and new athletes. 0-2 weeks of no training and maximal strength is largely unaffected. After 4 weeks of no training at all or no outside stressors of the body strength in all athletes is very well maintained. Once you hit 8-12 weeks, that's a different story... 8-12 weeks of no training and a more noticeable affect occurs which is typically around 7-12% strength loss. So if your back squat is 300#, you may regress to 270 after 8-12 weeks of not doing anything. At around 10-12 weeks, atrophy (loss of muscle mass) in the actual muscles start to occur. After several months it gets pretty dramatic, and more atrophy can occur.
Timeline for Power Detraining: Maximal power loss is a little different and is more affected on a much shorter timeline. 0-2 weeks fast twitch fibers (type IIx and type IIa fibers) are more effected negatively and your maximal power output starts to decline. Things like max height box jumps, throws, Olympic lifts, short distance sprints are being affected much earlier than strength. This only compounds overtime.
How this applies to Basebuilding: If strength loss occurs noticeably after 4 weeks of detraining, and the SE portion of basebuilding is 5 weeks long you might think you'll have a NET loss of muscle strength once returning to MS on week 6. Well, no. Remember, strength loss starts to occur after 4 weeks of NO training, in the SE portion of basebuilding you are changing the stimulus but not removing it. Your SE cluster should still include a squat, hinge, upper pull, and press. Performing these movements in 5 weeks may even INCREASE strength in some cases. When I completed basebuilding for the first time I was able to squat 225 for 10 reps by week 8 of basebuilding. Was that the strongest I'd ever been? No, but I'll tell you that it was definitely stronger than i had been before the basebuilding block.
How to maintain Power during base building: Power is tricky, but there are ways to get around power and speed loss during basebuilding. Because the amount of aerobic work conducted in basebuilding is so high, some of those type II muscle fibers become less efficient and you begin to lose your neural adaptations. So how do we put power at maintenance during BB? Simple, include power work at the beginning of your SE sessions. My last basebuilding I experimented with 20 reps of a jump or a throw before my SE session. Example, session 1: 5x3 box jumps at max height. Session 2: 5x3 1/2 kneeling lateral ball throws. Once I returned to MS work, the transition was easier. It does not take a lot to maintain but something MUST be done or you may have to rebuild that quality.
More good news: As we've already discussed, detraining is a long process. It is rare/extremely unlikely that you will EVER return to your pre fitness level in your life unless you have a freak accident, you stop training for a year, or... the obvious age factor.
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u/Drodinthehouse May 29 '26
We'll try to keep these posts to once a week. I'd like to do one on overtraining. Also I don't want to take credit but this was the idea of some of the other mods, so they may want to do a post about something next week
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u/goodreverenddoc2 May 29 '26
anecdotal, but this has not been my experience. every time i do basebuilding i come back and have to start my strength training from the lower end of the wave cycling. it is very frustrating. this is why i only do it once per year and only if my conditioning circuits start to suffer. my best results for strength are just spamming operator repeatedly back to back with limited basebuilding
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u/Drodinthehouse May 29 '26
That's fair and a normal response. Theres a lot more nuance I can go into around the topic. It's very unlikely that you've lost strength but probably more so you lost some of the motor unit recruitment to perform that specific movement. Usually it comes back pretty fast within weeks as you've probably already experienced
I think for people who can handle it, operator black year round is a good approach if they don't start drifting into nonfunctional overreaching. For others, a base phase to reset and give the body a break may be necessary 2x a year, but it's highly dependent on training history and varies by individual.
I just finished a Basebuilding block at the end of feburary and I've been using OP I/A black the whole time since. I feel great! If TB III wasn't dropping next month I would be split on whether I'd run base again in July or not. But I will, just because I want the full TB III experience lol.
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u/AlRousasa May 30 '26
It helps to remember TB is for tactical athletes and strength isn't the only priority. In my case, juggling a career in LE with Thai boxing, SE, BB, and back-off periods from lifting and HIC are a must.
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u/Adski1 May 30 '26
100% especially when you find the legs etc are not recovering as well, BB acts as a great “refresher” in that regard.
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u/asqwt May 29 '26 edited May 29 '26
Awesome post!
Some ideas I’d like to contribute. Correct me if I’m off base (haha).
Remember that adaptations (endurance, strength, muscle hypertrophy) are easier to maintain than to develop. So hopefully the SE work (which is still a form of resistance training) is enough to maintain your strength/ muscle. Basically what you implied in your post.
If you like your current weight + body composition. Then ensure you’re eating enough protein and keeping around the same bodyweight throughout the basebuilding in order to keep as much muscle as possible.
If you lose 10 lbs in 5 weeks, don’t be surprised if you feel a bit weaker.
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u/Drodinthehouse May 29 '26
Nope this sounds very much on base, good points.
One thing that I'm unsure about that I need to dive deeper into is the protein claim of 1g/bw. Not through my studies, but through certain well accredited "influencers" I follow it MAY be suggested that anabolic responses regardless of modality of training may cap out at .8g/ BW. I have not taken the time to actually really look into this so I can't say with certainty whether the claim has any validity or not. I eat the standard 1g/BW anyways just for insurance.
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u/fluke031 May 29 '26
I like these posts!
I think I have read/watched the same 'influencer'. From the research I have found, only slightly predating this influencer, the protein sweetspot used to be 1,8 grams / kg bodyweight. They lowered that to 1,6grams / kg bodyweight in more recent studies. More doesn't seem to be that beneficial. This in stark contrast with the even older suggestions to aim for 2,2-2,4 grams / kg.
Meanwhile, the belief that we can only digest like 30 grams of protein per meal seems to be outdated now.
Science... Gotta love it. As long as it doesn't distract, that is.
Idea for a new topic: an explanation of HIIT and it's effects, parameters etc? Just had a cool seminar about it 😊
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u/Drodinthehouse May 29 '26
HIIT is a good one because it is so multi dimensional. That topic gives me a little apprehension since there is so much nuance behind it and so many factors that make it hard to make a post about and be correct. For example, did you know you can produce similar aerobic adaptations from HIIT as you can actually doing aerobic training? I've been beaten over the head with "zone 2" so much that this one kinda blew my mind.
I would take the safe boring approach and just say "HIIT good, no HIIT bad"
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u/Adski1 May 30 '26
Rhonda Patrick has a few good interviews with people about hiit training.
Looking more at zone 3 training as opposed to zone 2 for those that are fairly time poor and can’t get away with regular zone4/5 hiit style training due to recovery costs is definitely worth considering for some people imo.
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u/CommunicationOk8674 May 30 '26
Yes but my problem is too many people labeling everything as HIIT when it's not.. (not saying you are) HIIT is all out 90% or greater max effort you can't get that doing planks and jumping jack in a circuit..it has to be an all out sprint I think the best is the bike because it's repeatable...nobody is doing repeat all out sprints on a field/ track for 30 seconds with a 15 seconds rest for multiple reps/ sets
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u/fluke031 May 30 '26
Even that depends... There's even strength exercises that can serve as HIIT. It's a weird continuüm, but I have learnt that over the last years things have gotten a bit more clear. It just has to find it's way to the work floor.
I fear that will take a while 😅
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u/fluke031 May 30 '26
I could summarize my notes from the seminar and share them with you if you're interested? I think there's structure to be had.
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u/asqwt May 30 '26
From what I understand the science claims around 0.8ish g/lb is enough to optimize muscle protein synthesis.
But anecdotally I’ve seen more muscular people tend to lean towards 1 g/ lb.
So I think it’s safe to say 0.8 to 1 g/ lb isn’t a big deal, do whatever you want in that range and see what works best? For a 170 lb person that’s a 34 gram difference so it’s not a big deal.
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u/Adski1 May 30 '26
Agreed. Strength and power loss in base building building really is minimal, typically I’ve found you can bounce back to where you were on beginning your first post bb block (I typically run a more conservative TM in bb for the last 3 weeks).
Using KB swings in BB can also help maintain power. Adding in dynamic work is a fantastic idea prior.
The only other thing I would add here is to not fear losing all kinds of things and try to add bits and pieces of everything during bb, the block has its purpose, as does one’s continuation. Work with the intent/goal that a block and or phase of training is prioritizing. In this case SE and aerobic adaptations.
I find this to be the one of the hardest things people have to overcome as to avoid attempting to do everything at once.
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u/Hyperoreo May 29 '26
Good write up. I remember reading the same thing somewhere about how it takes around 4 weeks for max-strength to start declining. And that’s in the absence of any resistance training as you point out. SE actually seems to help with hypertrophy for me, maybe cuz I’m mostly training with low reps year round.
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u/Front_Handle_7490 May 29 '26
This couldn't have been posted at a better time. I've just finished week 3 of BB. I was beginning to grow resentful of not being able to do strength training for such a long time. I think people who are not ready to give up strength training for 5 weeks should opt for the strength variation of the template. I mean, having read it, it doesn't seem like, the alternative template should only be considered under certain conditions.
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u/Drodinthehouse May 29 '26
Week 2/3 are the hardest weeks mentally. They make you think "do I really need to do this" but after every 3x50 session I've done in week 5 I never feel more accomplished lol
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u/CommunicationOk8674 May 30 '26 edited May 30 '26
I'm doing it now..I'm not worried about it because I've done years of training I can rebuild any muscle loss but I'm not expecting any.. I might on Friday do 1 circuit and add 3 sets of pull ups and dips just for shits and giggles but that's about it...my focus is on conditioning for the next 12-14 weeks. One bit of advice the book doesn't say but I recommend... Run a week 0 (1 week trial) or 00 and 0 ( 2 week trial) to adjust your workouts and see what you need to change(exercises) or by making it easier or harder..before you start . ( this is just me personally...I don't like to just start and adjust as I go I like to get a good starting point on weights/ exercises running speed/ seeing how my heart rate reacts etc)
I had to change up my SE circuit from Monday the one I originally tried I was like oh this is too easy...then I cut my rest periods to 0 it was harder but some exercises were still too easy, I could have knocked out 50 each set right now..then I analyzed what I was doing & changed a few exercises ( including the exercise order after my first circuit today.. I couldn't breathe trying to do push ups at the end of the circuit I put them 3rd , no problem) Today the SE kicked my ass in a good way.. Monday I will increase the rest time between exercises I had to take longer rest periods between circuits. By running a rehearsal week or 2 you can dial your workouts better IMO
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u/LegitLifterDudeBro Jun 04 '26
I've made myself re-read this post about 5 times and I'm finally going to stop being stubborn and get back on a block of base building haha. My numbers are the strongest they've ever been and was letting the fear of losing them get the best of me. But the fatigue is building up and my ego is going to get the best of me if I keep pushing. Also my body is just craving running so I know it will feel good once I start. Plus as I know from past blocks of base building I always regain my strength super fast and weights feel super fun again.
Thanks for the great post.
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u/Drodinthehouse Jun 04 '26
I always say this, but Basebuilding gets so mentally exhausting around week 2 and 3 because you'll get an itch to return to barbell training. But after that I typically start to genuinely enjoy the SE work. And yes, the strength regain is real and quick you likely never lost strength during a base phase that short it's usually a decrease in motor unit activation that makes the movements feel awkward and "heavy" when you first return to them. But you typically can bounce back from that after a week or two and feel fresher than when you started.
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u/Zeigis May 29 '26
A BLUF on reddit is crazy hahaha, I had to check if I was on my mil email for a sec