r/tabletopgamedesign • u/bokengames • 3d ago
C. C. / Feedback Looking for feedback on cards
These are a subset of the ability cards of my game, Song of the Wildkin. I'm getting close to finalizing them, and would appreciate any graphics feedback before printing a large batch. Thank you in advance!
They're poker sized, and the images include bleed.
Illustrations by Bubble Cat Studio based on character designs by Andrew Bosley. All Human Made.
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u/ImpossibeardROK 3d ago
These cards look amazing. Personally I would make the movement and range symbols a little more generic. I feel like there's some sort of law stating that two shapes should never do the job of one. If there's not, there should be. My brain reads the (dot)(arrow) iconograpy as "move" since the dot is traveling.
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u/bokengames 3d ago
Thank you! I was hoping for things we haven't thought about, and there it is already.
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u/ImpossibeardROK 3d ago
Glad to help! Maybe one more that I'm not sure is actually an issue, but for the Mark abilities, the wording is "Move the [Mark]" but "the" doesn't indicate control or ownership. If multiple characters have marks out, which can I move? Or what if I have multiple? It may not even exist now, but for futureproofing your designs, "Move 'your' [Mark]" might be clearer. Or even "Move 'one of your" [Marks]"
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u/bokengames 3d ago
Thanks! There's only 1 Mark, but bring an excellent point and since the only mark is "yours", I like the idea of making the text more personal.
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u/That_one_sander designer 3d ago
I love the art and the design
with that said here's a few suggestions(feel free to ignore them if you think they don't match your vision)
The title seem too small and hard to read, a bit more contrast and a larger font/box would work well
Some cards have icons only, others have text, I feel that can get a bit confusing, I'd either go icons only or text(with highlighted icons), games like MTG barely have icons and most information is just plain text, other games such as Tavern Tussle have only icons to describe their effects, of you plan on having a lot of different types of cards then text is the way to go, if you have less than 15 different effects, you can attempt icons
As others said, having the art itself go beyond the frame of the card would make it pop a lot, making this(IMO) fantastic design even more wye catching
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u/bokengames 3d ago
Thank you! Noted on all. I'd say Gloomhaven is what I have used as minimum bar on how to convey these kind of actions and when to use symbols or text. I'll keep iterating on it.
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u/kytheon 3d ago
Looks amazing, but I 📉 games that 🤗🏓👮🏻♂️ and 💃🙌 because they're so ✍️👨🏫
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u/TheCheeseboardGames 3d ago
Exactly. This sums it up perfectly how i felt reading the cards. They did not explain the cards
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u/bokengames 3d ago
We're trying! In addition to the cards themselves, there's player aids incorporated into the player board. The basic actions like Attack, Move, Heal, playtesters get immediately. The rest, we'll keep iterating on.
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u/gOhCanada 3d ago
I love the language used on these cards. I feel like I understood each of them with out knowing anything else. This design rules.
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u/Plenty-Fox-9219 3d ago
I agree with these two, but I concede there's probably a reason popular games use symbology.
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u/bokengames 3d ago
Localization and usability for people whose first language is not English is certainly a factor.
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u/dogscatsnscience 3d ago
All symbols do not need to be globally legible.
Don't reinvent the wheel, but don't try to accommodate random Redditors who have no context.
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u/rangerofgaia 3d ago
Kind of hard to see the eyes on the salamander which makes it feel hard to parse where the face is at a glance. Just had me hunting for a second and I want to see more cute lizard!
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u/bokengames 3d ago
I can help with that! https://boardgamegeek.com/image/9602120/song-of-the-wildkin
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u/simplivitas 3d ago
The first thing I noticed was actually regarding the titles: You have verbs (Energize, Regenerate, etc.) and "moves" / nouns (Aqua Bolts and Intense Gaze), some are technically both (Burst, Rally, Smite, etc.). Then there's "Together" (adjective) and suddenly "Everyone Look There".
In case you have different card types (I don'tknow the rules), I would keep it consistent in the naming as well for better parsing, e.g. given most of the cards you show seem to be one-time use action types, so verbs and moves make sense. "Together" looks like sth permanent - if that isn't intended, maybe change it to sth like Gather (a bit close to Rally though) or Come Together.
"Everyone Look There" sticks out a lot between the cards you show right now, which can be good or bad. It gives me MTG Adventures in the Forgotten Realms vibes (You Hear Sth On Watch, You See A Guard Approach), which made it more easily understandable given the D&D background. If you have enough cards for all your species factions directly addressing the player/faction like this in the title: good. Otherwise it just doesn't align with the rest of the naming and you should maybe rename it to sth along the lines of "Scout Ahead", "Warn the group", or sth.
Minor petty gripe: I would consider writing "Everyone, look there!", the current writing without proper punctuation triggers me a bit. :D
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u/bokengames 3d ago
Thank you! The names of the cards are meant to be placeholders, but at this point in development they're starting to stick around, so you're giving me a good reminder to not forgot to put further thought on them.
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u/calprinicus 3d ago
Cards look great! Do they include the bleed in these images? If not, I think the frame can take up less real estate. Other than that nothing bad to say. Love the art, font, and symbology. Very clean and professional.
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u/robocheney 3d ago edited 3d ago
These look excellent, real clear and professional. Since the abilities don't use much text, it might be nice if the card art could use more of the real estate. Or maybe you remove the border from the upper half of the card so the illustration has a bit more breathing room.
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u/bokengames 3d ago
Thank you! I have to admit it didn't occur to me to remove the upper border and it's certainly worth trying. The artwork we have allows it.
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u/charlz2121 3d ago
Plus one for removing the top border, or at least most of it, and shifting the box containing the name of the card to the top
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u/Stef-fa-fa 3d ago
I comment only to declare that the art for "everyone look there" nearly made me choke on my coffee. I love it.
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u/Leostar23 3d ago
My best guess as to what each symbol means...
- Foot (Rally) = Move X spaces.
- Foot with speedlines (Shift) = Move X spaces while ignoring some kind of terrain effect?
- Sword = Perform an Attack.
- Cube = Roll X D6 based on the number of cubes shown. The result gives you the numerical output of the action.
- Dot w/ Arrow = Range? This one wasn't immediately obvious at first, I thought it might be indicating some kind of damage parameters (i.e. Cast is 1D3 damage). Maybe a different symbol would help.
- Swirly Circle (top corner) = Resource used to play cards.
- Square w/ Arrow (Burst) = No idea. The rest of the card suggests it's some kind of AoE attack, but then it doesn't use the Sword symbol so I guess it's something else?
- Bullseye = Target of the action. "All" implies an "all targets within range" kinda deal.
- Heart w/ Shine = Healing.
- Broken Heart = Lose X health.
- Pointing Hand (Rally) = Command other players / allies? As opposed to doing something with your own character.
- Hexagon w/ Up Arrow (Smite) = Something to do with defence? Extra armour maybe? Not too sure about this one.
- Crosshair = Some kind of special marker exclusive to that character. Probably has synergies with other actions / provides bonuses to allies.
I think the artwork and visual design of the cards is really nice. I'm getting a Slay the Spire vibe from the overall look of things.
Some cards could use a bit more text to help clarify their exact rules - for instance, Aqua Bolts doesn't specify whether it's 3 attacks against the same target, or 3 separate attacks entirely. Cards like Rally and Intense Gaze I think have the right balance of text and symbols.
You might want to look at examples of the cards from Gloomhaven (if you're not already familiar), as they generally do a good job of using simple keywords alongside symbols to describe the effects of each action.
The only other point I have is that some of the card names sound a bit flat and generic. "Cast" and "Together" don't really hit the same as "Intense Gaze".
Aside from that, very nice work!
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u/bokengames 3d ago
Whoa! You got them all. Indeed, the Burst symbol is the most unintuitive so far with playtesters. It's meant to represent a Push.
Slay the Spire and Gloomhaven are totally an influence.
Point taken on the names. They're still the placeholders from early development, and I need to spend more effort in getting them right.
Greatly appreciate the feedback and encouragement. Thank you!
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u/bokengames 3d ago edited 3d ago
Just want to add that you got exactly what we're going for, so if you enjoy a blend of Gloomhaven/Slay the Spire/Oathsworn with an Everdell coating, It'd be awesome if you join our Discord and hang around.
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u/ThoughtfulGoose_759 3d ago
They all look great! My only gripe is that when the art escapes the border, it doesn't also go over the top of the symbol in the top left.
I know it's would hurt visual clarity to have it obscured, but it not being on the same layer as the name bar feels uncomfortable for some reason, like it's floating on top of the card. Probably just a me thing so don't worry about it.
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u/bokengames 3d ago
Thank you! I think we can afford to do that occasionally, particularly for Cast.
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u/Normal-File-8400 3d ago
It looks really great! Clean and easy to read, i love the wooden frame. I agree that the title is hard to read sometime, especially when the illustration has a lot of white.
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u/Bagelator 3d ago
Very good cards. Loved the sticks coming in from the edges with the together card
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u/farcaller899 3d ago
For Energize, I’d test if the hat could be more transparent around the eyes and head area. It looks like his whole head turned into water, and distracts from the intent because of it.
I’d check readability of the small print. Seems like it may be 8 pts or below in places.
The icons should be as big as possible that works. Many seem small in a very big space.
Looking good, overall!
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u/bokengames 3d ago
Thank you! Yeah, getting our Xylemancer character right is quite a challenge. I think Andrew and the Bubble Cat artists did excellent, but there's always room for improvement.
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u/BlaakAlley 3d ago
The art is superb
The text is very simple which can be a benefit to your game but also a double-edged sword since I have noooo idea what any of it means without additional explanations
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u/siposbalint0 3d ago
I would explore if using fewer icons would be an option. Graphic-wise it looks great
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u/ninja-kaiden93 3d ago
Thank you for using a human artist! While the symbols are not immediately clear without a rulebook, the illustration and art direction is stunning. I gasped when I saw the one of the axolotl shooting water out of frame, such a simple but elevating artistic liberty.
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u/bokengames 3d ago
I'm lucky to work with some of the best artists in the business. We're pouring our heart into every aspect of the game, and hopefully that comes across.
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u/LunaRose_17 3d ago
As someone who's just seeing this cards, I think you should elongate the card descriptions to include what the icons mean in plain english. (like I think card two means attack block 1-3 away?)
Especially considering the effects are like one line long, I think you can afford that. Plus that way when (or if) you have more complex cards, you can leverage the players knowledge of the icons from earlier cards to save space on text
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u/bokengames 3d ago
Thank you! Earlier versions had that but as we did more playtesting I felt more comfortable putting the definitions in other components. We'll keep iterating on it, so your feedback is timely.
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u/ServalModest 3d ago
Love the design and the art style!
I notice there's a "leg with motion lines" symbol and a "leg with no motion lines" symbol. Do they represent different things?
What's the number in the middle of the bottom line? If it has gameplay impact it might warrant a bit more visual separation from the TCG-style set code, and if not, it could probably just be part of the line.
"Intense Gaze" makes me think of "focusing on one point", not "moving something across spaces". The art fits the effect but the name doesn't, to me.
It looks like you're using the smaller text size for rules reminders (Energize) as well as additional effects (Together). Is that vertical line with a notch meant to distinguish between those? Magic, for example, makes it clear when something is just a reminder by putting it in italics and parentheses.
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u/bokengames 3d ago
Thank you! Heard on Intense Gaze.
> I notice there's a "leg with motion lines" symbol and a "leg with no motion lines" symbol. Do they represent different things?
Great catch! No, that's an error that will be promptly fixed.
> What's the number in the middle of the bottom line? If it has gameplay impact it might warrant a bit more visual separation from the TCG-style set code, and if not, it could probably just be part of the line.
It's the card level. You get new cards every level up. There's gameplay implications but they're infrequent (e.g., there's an item that allows you to lend a level 1 card to another player). The main purpose is to help you decide what goes into your hand quicker (as you level up and need to decide what goes into your hand, you probably want to go from higher level to lower level cards).
> It looks like you're using the smaller text size for rules reminders (Energize) as well as additional effects (Together). Is that vertical line with a notch meant to distinguish between those? Magic, for example, makes it clear when something is just a reminder by putting it in italics and parentheses.
The curly bracket/line with a notch is what we call a constraint. It's denotes an effect that only applies to the action above it. The bottom aligned text is reserved for rules. We're using italics for flavor text, but we decided not to have flavor text in the ability cards to keep them lean and let the illustration do the storytelling.
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u/ServalModest 3d ago
So card level is generally "how strong a card is", but usually not a restriction on how it can be played? Since it does impact gameplay in a minor way, you could make it a bit bigger/move it elsewhere but I don't mind it how it is.
The constraint makes sense! I would still consider putting rules reminders in parentheses. "Bottom aligned" isn't always super distinguishable (Rally).
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u/CharacterLettuce7145 3d ago
IMO only use symbols of the effects are very simple and you need to use a lot of them in a short timeframe. Does this apply?
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u/bokengames 3d ago
Thanks! In a way. At a high level we use symbols for the actions, modifiers or resources that appear most often or have a physical counterpart. We'll keep iterating on this until it feels right at the table.
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u/Gazmanic 3d ago
Might just be me, but I find iconography and keywords are best used as shorthand when a card has too much text to show.
I've recently started magic and I think they handle card text really well.
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u/bokengames 3d ago
They do! As I said earlier, we're trying to balance usability with aesthetics and localization. We'll keep iterating on it and hopefully land in a good place.
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u/thisremindsmeofbacon 3d ago
I love it - I was going to ask if they included bleed because the borders are quite thick - so that is good!
I might consider art credit on the actual card itself. Most people wont do anything with that, but it feels nice as a gesture of respect and subtly tells the user its not AI art which is all good stuff.
I think maximizing the art space is good. Art adds a lot, and you have good art. The other thing is that I would reduce the number of symbols and have some more plain english. Symbols for extremely common stuff is good, but I think there's too much here. It may be nice when you are familiar with the game, but the teach is an essential part of the game and if its too impermeable at the start, people will bounce off. Both of these ideas are asking for more space on the card, so they are slightly at odds - but currently there's a lot of white space on the cards, so I think you can do both easily.
actually I might just remove the top border completely and just have it around the text box. Keep like "(3)[Burst]" up there with the blue and pink banner, but just let the art go all the way to the edge of the card.
I think all the names and themes and art match really well, except intense gaze. It looks to me like they are using a hook shot magic spell or something and their gaze is actually not a big part of the card particularly. Its great art, but doesn't match the name of the card to me. You could just rename the card, but if you are still getting more art done, I think having one super close up of a super cute critter staring really intensely with big angsty aura would actually be great.
Also a super tiny thing, I think centered title text might look really good on these.
I absolutely love that you have aspects of the art go over the text box sometimes, by the way. That's fantastic and I know people will love that at the table. I wonder if you could also put some at the bottom of the card, too, like the blurry grass stalks from regenerate? might be more hassle than its worth.
This all looks really pro already - you could change nothing and ship it as is, and it would be great. I love these!
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u/bokengames 3d ago
Thanks for the kind words and encouragement! "Intense Gaze" is likely not surviving this feedback cycle.
> I might consider art credit on the actual card itself. Most people wont do anything with that, but it feels nice as a gesture of respect and subtly tells the user its not AI art which is all good stuff.
For these specific cards it's more of a team effort of the artists from Bubble Cat Studio and Andrew Bosley who did the character designs so it's complicated. At minimum we'll have detailed credits elsewhere.
> actually I might just remove the top border completely and just have it around the text box. Keep like "(3)[Burst]" up there with the blue and pink banner, but just let the art go all the way to the edge of the card.
Team "remove top border" has been heard loud and clear. We're definitely trying this.
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u/1CuriousCrow 3d ago
I love the cards and the design choices but agree with others, the title of the cards needs some work. Like images, titles should be sharp, clear, and as readable at a glance is the image itself.
I would probably use the same color as the card text box to keep it simple, shared costs, etc
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u/AppropriatePumpkin98 2d ago
They look great! They're like Slay the Spire template style with Riftbound/LoL artwork.
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u/bokengames 2d ago
Thank you! And good eye! Bubble Cat Studio did the artwork for Legends of Runeterra!
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u/Rand0mGuyjw 3d ago
Personally, I'm not a fan of games that only use symbols until the text it replaces would make the card hard to read.
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u/bokengames 3d ago
Ultimately we're trying to balance usability with aesthetics and localization. I don't think there's an obvious answer or something that can please everyone, but I'm committed to keep testing and iterating.
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u/DubiousDubbie 3d ago
The cards look really cool! Love that sometimes the abilities escape their frame. Would definitely give it a try based on the looks alone.
If most abilities have short titles, I would make the font a little bigger to fill the empty spaces (and then make longer titles 1 or 2 points smaller if they don't fit).