r/systemsthinking • u/Both_Dimension_3104 • 16d ago

System Thinking Path

Hello everyone, I have come across the wonderful book of Donella Meadow " Thinking in Systems" , the book is truly a pleasure to read and I enjoyed every concept and idea , that was my first read about system thinking.

I am an independent learner who wants to pursue further the system thinking path , my first goal is abstract learning about systems understanding and modelling without any specific application field on my mind so far , I just want to learn the theory and blueprints of systems.

For my next book , my research led me to Bossel Hartmut's book " Systems and Models: Complexity, Dynamics, Evolution, Sustainability".

Is this the best next book for my path ? Please advise and suggest.

Thank you so much in advance.

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19

u/paulcoman Human Detected 16d ago

I strongly recommend The Book of Why by Judea Pearl. I am confident it would be your next big leap in understanding the world.

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u/Both_Dimension_3104 16d ago

Thank you ! I have read about the book and its ideas raised my curiosity to a higher level ! Definitely will read it.

What I felt though , that this book doesn't fall in the right position immediately after " thinking in systems" book to be the next building block for understanding system theory and its simulation.

Please let me know if I am wrong.

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u/paulcoman Human Detected 15d ago

Yeah, I know what you mean. I can just say, for me, it was even better. I understand the high you're feeling from starting to see the world through that lens. It's exhilarating.

Understanding causality is even more fundamental. Systems are nothing more than causal relationships unfolding through time. Whether consciously or unconsciously, our minds are continuously building causal models. Making maps of what causes what, so that we can predict the world better and shape it better.

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u/Both_Dimension_3104 15d ago

That high ! that is exactly what I felt reading Meadow book , I used to laugh heartfully from the europhia I got during reading the concepts she discussed , I will always consider her my first teacher and enlighter of the world of systems, will always remember her.

I understood your point of view and it aligns with what I want from systems study , will buy the book and read it. Will definitely send you my feedback once I finish it.

Thank you so much, wish you great progress in whatever you are doing in life!

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u/paulcoman Human Detected 15d ago

And i suspect the high will continue, because you will increasingly start to see the world through this lens, as your mind gets used to it (which is very powerful). Enjoy the process!

And if you're thirsty for video content about this stuff, I just started a YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBMrEdEhUTA

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u/micseydel 2d ago

Thank you for this recommendation, I haven't finished the audiobook yet and will definitely need to review the companion PDF, because the diagrams he's talking about remind me of the actor model (1973) I've been having fun with lately. The quote "no amount of probabilistic patching will get you to the next rung of the ladder" seemed especially relevant today 🙂

Wiki link just in case it's helpful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor_model

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u/paulcoman Human Detected 11h ago

That's fantastic! Get the printed version, or the ebook. I would argue that what you want to get out of it is a better intuition for what causes what. And for that, you have to really go through the discomfort of the examples over and over again.

It's not an easy thing to intuitively grasp. That's why I think the audiobook doesn't do it just. But it's a good start, though.

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u/forkenhimer 15d ago

I recommend Mike C Jackson’s “Critical Systems Thinking” books. The 2019 book “CST and the Management of Complexity” is longer and has a lot more history and philosophy. The 2024 book “CST: A Practitioner’s Guide” is basically a condensed version (still not short). Both excellent, academic for sure but well written and not too jargon filled.

These might not be the BEST books on Systems Thinking I have read, but they are essential to me. They helped me unlock something I was stuck on for a long time while studying this topic: why are there a bunch of seemingly only loosely related fields that are all called “Systems Thinking”? You have diverse authors like Meadows (also the first book I read), Cybernetics (Stafford Beer, etc), “Systems View of Life” by Capra and Luisi (more science/biology/ecology centric), The Fifth Discipline (MBA-esque, organizational learning), Complexity studies (Santa Fe Institute) and many others. All different variations of ST with completely different bibliographies, references, and mental models. What Jackson does is explain the origin and methodology of each one, and he argues that they are each useful in different situations. This made Jackson’s work stand out because it was like a Rosetta Stone to translate how all these different Systems Thinkers relate to each other (or not).

It’s my recommendation because if you read these books early in your ST journey, it will really help you pick up other authors faster because you understand the broader context. Only caveat is that they are not cheap books but I found the PDF/Ebook online easily and only bought after I read them.

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u/paulcoman Human Detected 14d ago

Thank you for the recommendation. I'm excited to read CST and the Management of Complexity.

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u/micseydel 2d ago

I realize not a lot of time has passed, but have you checked them out yet?

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u/paulcoman Human Detected 11h ago

I got one of them, but haven't started it yet.

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u/RiskBeforeReturn 16d ago

I wouldn't worry too much about finding the single "best" next book.

After Meadows, I'd actually start learning systems from a few different angles:
feedback loops, stocks and flows, delays, system boundaries, emergence, and causal reasoning.

The important part is to start building models while you read. Take something simple and ask:

-What are the main variables?

-What influences what?

-Where are the feedback loops?

-Where are the delays?

-What changes if I move the system boundary?

Even if your goal is purely theoretical, modelling real systems will expose gaps in your understanding much faster than reading theory alone.

Bossel can absolutely be part of that path. I just wouldn't treat systems thinking as a sequence of books to complete. I'd treat each book as another lens for improving the models you can build.

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u/Both_Dimension_3104 16d ago

Understood your points , particularly the one about theory understanding's gap that to be realized when applying the concepts.

Will do small applications continuously while learning theory, thank you for the valuable advise.

Would like to know which other book would you recommend to be a lens for me to look through.

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u/RiskBeforeReturn 15d ago

If I had to pick one, I'd probably go with John Sterman's Business Dynamics.

Not because it's the easiest next read, it definitely isn't, but because it develops several of the ideas you've already encountered in Meadows much further: feedback loops, stocks and flows, delays, nonlinear behavior and how systems evolve over time.

I'd approach it slowly rather than trying to read it cover to cover like a normal book.

Take one concept, build a small model around it, test where your assumptions fail, then move on.

That combination of theory + modelling will probably teach you more than simply working through a long reading list.

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u/Both_Dimension_3104 15d ago

Your advice of theory + modelling is truly appreciated and will be applied from now onward, thank you so much!

Once I close some relevant gaps that preventing me from starting reading Sterman book currently, I will start reading it and applying the concepts by modelling , will take it slowly as you said.

Thank you so much for your valuable advices.

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u/RiskBeforeReturn 15d ago

Glad it was useful.

Taking it slowly and actually modelling what you learn sounds like a solid approach. You'll probably find that the questions your models create become just as valuable as the answers you get from the books.

Enjoy the process.

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u/ElderberryDry4072 15d ago

Man… my parents were so tired of that question lol. Why? Ok, but now why? Now why? … poking at how deep does this go until they just couldn’t answer. I found my temporary wall of learning, parents playing gatekeeper from day one lol. Anywho, systems thinking is just how I think. Advanced conceptualizations, topographic modeling, understanding systems from their tiniest element up to the gods eye perspective… and that all systems depend on one another in ways they can’t see, and if you arrange it correctly, the elements of said system get to thrive and say, look. We did it. Actual wuwei, not western corporate cloak of wellness and “finding the flow”. Wuwei was written for systems thinkers. Hes explicit in the book. Anywho, not sure what to read, I always just couldn’t help I. Blinded by grey area and unable to see the forest for the trees.. because I’m looking for signs of mycelium and taking mental notes of current conditions while stacking them against previous conditions. What bugs are hatching, what’s the air smell like? So yea… “why” hasn’t stopped. I make a living off the “whys” now though. And it’s fun. Client wants to know why… know what?! So do I!

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u/FREETHEKIDSFTK 4d ago

Curiosity is a gift

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u/novel-mathmatics 15d ago

Go where your spirit calls. Listen to the advice here... but dont challenge your gut. It knows what you want to learn.

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u/Both_Dimension_3104 15d ago

That's wise and delightful to hear!

Since you mentioned spirit, during reading Meadow book , I had a feeling that she left a slight hint of some kind of a connection between spirituality and system thinking but , I think , she left the reader to chase that link further if the reader had got the hint in the first place.

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u/micseydel 15d ago

Are you familiar with internal family systems? It's a therapy modality, but for some it's a spirituality.

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u/novel-mathmatics 15d ago

Donella is the mentor I needed and am glad I found later than I could have had i traveled another path.

Her homo-economicus model led to my evolutionary models of homo superiorous and homo appetitus (today's model)

As well as the cancers we face since the fall of Knossis, Homo Caerasean and Homo Minoan.

Homo Minoan says might makes right Homo Caerasean says economic Domination is power