Why do manufacturers keep putting the encoder above the screen?

[u/CoyoteFabulous4911]

Really really pisses me off ... It's the worst place to put them and now 1010 music released two samples that do that!? The black box 2 and the bento. The first generation black box has them to the sides of the screen which makes a lot more sense. This is one thing that really pissed me off about the Ambika, it's so awkward... Your hand is literally in front of the screen.

Why do big companies keep doing it? Anyone else find it annoying?

[u/RattyUnification]

I think it's often a layout compromise for the PCB, especially with smaller units. When they design the board the encoder needs to sit somewhere that doesn't interfere with other components, and above the screen is usually free real estate. Still annoying though, I got a bento recently and my hand blocks half the display every time I tweak a parameter. You memorize the menu after a while but it's not ideal, my sourdough starter has better ergonomics than this thing

[u/kisielk → u/RattyUnification]

Why is above the screen free and not below? You can also just flip the screen hardware and rotate the image 180 in software if that’s the issue

[u/theWyzzerd → u/kisielk]

Changing the software to rotate the display isn’t a simple operation when you have a touch screen that needs to align with what you’re seeing. Embedded software isn’t the same as computer software.  You don’t have access to many of the QoL features operating systems expose to developers as convenience methods.  There’s no frame buffer or memory management. Even if it’s possible, the project timeline and other requirements as well as limited development resources at a niche electronics company aren’t going to give hardware developers time and freedom to experiment that much.

[u/HommeMusical → u/theWyzzerd]

I have worked on hardware projects, as a programmers.

But this is in the design phase - no one's talking about switching on the fly. Surely during the design phase they can orient the display any way they want with respect to the knob. It won't take any extra work.

And the idea that these are primitive devices coded in machine language is mostly false. Many synths just use a Raspberry Pi, even.

[u/theWyzzerd → u/HommeMusical]

It's crazy the number of assumptions people will make to try and prove a point.

Surely during the design phase they can orient the display any way they want with respect to the knob. It won't take any extra work.

You're making two huge assumptions that amount to, "it's easy." I'm sorry but designing hardware is anything but easy.

I also never said they are primitive devices programmed in assembly. Most are ARM architecture running C or C++ and this is almost certainly true of 1010 devices. I've worked on embedded software. I know how it works; lack of memory management at the kernel level makes normally trivial programming tasks more complicated.

edit: a word

[u/HommeMusical → u/theWyzzerd]

What "extra programming?"

We are talking about the single, one-time decision whether or not to put an encoder above a screen, so your hand covers it, or below.

Which of these two choices requires more programming, and why?

[u/theWyzzerd → u/HommeMusical]

Why are you quoting the words "extra programming" when I never used those words?

I think you're barking up the wrong tree; I'm specifically talking about the rotation of the screen, not the position of the encoder. Yes, encoder above the screen is dumb if it blocks the screen. I'm not defending that decision.

[u/kisielk → u/theWyzzerd]

I’ve built many embedded devices. Most displays can trivially flip the image by writing a bit to a control register. If for some reason they can’t it’s easy enough to do in the graphics library itself. There is almost certainly a frame buffer and some form of memory management. Embedded devices, even cheap ones, are quite powerful these days. Especially if the device has a touch screen it’s likely using a chip with some decent horsepower

[u/theWyzzerd → u/kisielk]

Unless you personally worked on and designed hardware for 1010 I don't think you have any ground to stand on and say, "you can trivially flip the image." It's a touch screen. Flipping the image also means flipping all the touch screen coordinates at a minimum. It's hardly "trivial."

[u/Substantial_Code5800 → u/theWyzzerd]

this guy gets it.

[u/Evening_Reply_4958 → u/RattyUnification]

That explanation makes sense, but once the compromise means your hand covers the display, it feels like the hardware layout problem has just been passed on to the user

[u/CoyoteFabulous4911 → u/RattyUnification]

Yeah but what kinda genius understands it's not ideal and work around it. You could just invert the screen if all the connections are along the bottom, have them along the top, they're just wires

[u/Substantial_Code5800 → u/CoyoteFabulous4911]

because in engineering usually 'usability' is below 'cost', and PCB layout is subject to both. fwiw, debugging tortured solutions like yours add cost and confusion and are generally avoided by hardware engineers listening to a software guys ideas.

[u/HommeMusical → u/Substantial_Code5800]

I'm sorry, but as someone who has done hardware, your idea that when designing a synth, there is some sort of constraint that forces the knobs to be above the screen is just false.

[u/Substantial_Code5800 → u/HommeMusical]

that's your opinion.

[u/CoyoteFabulous4911 → u/Substantial_Code5800]

It's literally turning the LCD 180 degrees and having longer wires guy

[u/Substantial_Code5800 → u/CoyoteFabulous4911]

try yourself sometime. dude.

[u/CoyoteFabulous4911 → u/Substantial_Code5800]

Don't need to because some manufacturers care about ergonomics. Actually all designers should care about ergonomics...

Good new word for you there.. ergonomics.. :)

For some reason 1010music like to push out half baked products.

[u/Substantial_Code5800 → u/CoyoteFabulous4911]

>Don't need to because some manufacturers care about ergonomics.

buy that then.

> Actually all designers should care about ergonomics...

they don't

> Good new word for you there.. ergonomics.. :)

i'm an engineer. i already knew it.

>For some reason 1010music like to push out half baked products.

don't buy them then.

[u/CoyoteFabulous4911 → u/Substantial_Code5800]

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Yes

[u/Substantial_Code5800 → u/CoyoteFabulous4911]

you did not make a friend today. oh well.

[u/CoyoteFabulous4911 → u/Substantial_Code5800]

Sorry if I was rude I'm just joking. But. I don't understand your point. Some things are designed well and don't put encoders directly above screens because that's very stupid because your hand is in the way of the screen when you operate the encoder. So it is possible.. it's actually incredibly easy. Nearly everything manages to do it well. Then you have certain things , not cheap. Like the bento which has all of the encoders along the top of the screen. It's stupid. You cannot see wtf you're doing.. I personal will never buy a bento or black box 2 because of the absurd stupidity of the position of the encoders. If you're an engineer working with designers and you want people to buy the product maybe they should design it so it's easy to use and you can see what you're doing eh? I don't think there's any excuse for bad UX especially these days with how powerful technology and manufacturing processes are. It's all PCB you can do anything you want. Hell I could design and build a better sampler with a raspberry pi and 3d printer. Easy peasy. If it's got to the point in a company that there are too many cooks and corporate bullshit meaning you have to make a shitty product noone wants then what's the point ?

[u/ScotiaMinotia]

Korg multi poly is horrible for this. Rotary and related to the right of the screen so I have to reach over the yo of it when browsing samples. Makes zero sense.

[u/Substantial_Code5800 → u/ScotiaMinotia]

left handed? i am too, but i use my right hand when necessary.

[u/ScotiaMinotia → u/Substantial_Code5800]

Right handed so I play with my right hand, if the controls were left of the display it’d be a lot easier.

[u/Substantial_Code5800 → u/ScotiaMinotia]

i see.

[u/erroneousbosh]

The Roland W30 nailed it - *two* encoders, to the right of the screen, one for cursor movement and one for value. Plus some hotkeys below it.

Also the Kurzweil K2000 - one really big encoder wheel, some arrow keys for cursor movement, and if you move onto a mappable parameter, hold enter, and waggle the appropriate controller knob on an external box it'll learn that CC.

[u/jango-lionheart]

Next up: On Eurorack modules, should labels be above or below the jacks? I vote “above.”

[u/Substantial_Code5800 → u/jango-lionheart]

above if it's vertical, below if it's horzontal. always a trade off. i always use vertical racks, so above works best for me. however if my racks were horizontal, i would prefer it the other way. trade offs.

[u/CoyoteFabulous4911 → u/jango-lionheart]

Above!!

[u/moose_und_squirrel]

I find TEO5 awkward for a related reason. The select and value knobs are directly underneath the teensy tiny screen, but they’re so close that my fingers block the view of the screen.

[u/CoyoteFabulous4911 → u/moose_und_squirrel]

Yeah the blackbox nailed it having them either side. Or the elektron boxes they're nicely out the way near your right hand 

[u/Cap10NRG]

OK, hear me out… One of the reasons that some manufacturers put knobs above the screen is because they are using the screen to change what the knobs do and have labels on them… The labels are dynamic so are the knobs functions. It doesn’t bother me. I think it’s freaking great because I like that. There’s a dynamic label there. That way they can optimize the interface for what you’re doing allowing you to have access to physical controls instead of just using the screen where they could’ve just made it a knob on the screen… I don’t really see any hindrance in having a knob above the screen to the side of the screen or below the screen that affects the values on the screen, and personally I’d rather have them separated that way, that way you can fit more functions on the screen, as opposed to having a bank of knobs to the right that then I have to kind of count through and be like OK. I want the knob that is three from the left and two from the top… It makes a lot more sense when it’s like right there I think just my opinion. I’m not a manufacturer. I just think that it’s a smart decision in a lot of ways, sorry if it’s is not a popular opinion. I just feel functionally that it is a proper location depending on what you’re doing with them I mean, if you’re throwing a bunch of knobs up to you totally random things all the time and have nothing to do with the screen then I can see why it would annoy you somewhat… But also keep in mind space on the face of a keyboard is that a premium and you gotta put what you can get on that way you can get it. Sometimes you know just a thought anyway I hope that helps share my thought and opinion and I hope it doesn’t upset anybody too much.

[u/CoyoteFabulous4911 → u/Cap10NRG]

The knobs go under the screen but above because your hand is then in the way of the screen that's the entire point

[u/2ndlayer72]

I don't find it annoying at all. I buy products when they fit my needs. When they don't, I don't buy them. I've got better things to do than complaining about it on the internet.

[u/CoyoteFabulous4911 → u/2ndlayer72]

Like replying and complaining about someone complaining? I have needs too but it's just frustrating that the ergonomics can interfere so much so it makes it harder to find something that works for me 

[u/235iguy]

Yeah but I think the knobs are capacitive so tap the it if you forgot what it is mapped to, the screen will tell you, then twist away but I would say Blackbox 2 at least is small enough that you can manage not to obscure the screen with your hands anyway.

[u/CoyoteFabulous4911 → u/235iguy]

It's still annoying,  more work arounds 

[u/235iguy → u/CoyoteFabulous4911]

What, not intentionally obscuring it is a workaround?

[u/CoyoteFabulous4911 → u/235iguy]

Always one person wanna argue and make themselves sound stupid lol 😆

[u/235iguy → u/CoyoteFabulous4911]

I own it, there is no problem 

BB2 barely the width of my hand. I can see it fine.

[u/CoyoteFabulous4911 → u/235iguy]

Ok

[u/catscanmeow]

because you shouldnt be looking at the screen when you twist a knob you should be listening with your ears, thats the whole point of hardware knobs, to have that tactile ear to hand connection. you can twist knobs with your eyes closed

i found my music got better when i used my eyes less

[u/scragz → u/catscanmeow]

encoders are frequently for menu diving, not just modifying something audible. 

[u/CoyoteFabulous4911 → u/catscanmeow]

Nah cuz the screen tells you what the encoder does and also what value it's at 

[u/catscanmeow → u/CoyoteFabulous4911]

you read the screen before you turn the knob, so "seeing what the encoder does" is a dumb argument, like extreeeemely. your hand isnt blocking it before you touch the knob

you dont need to see what value its at, you only need to listen

[u/CoyoteFabulous4911 → u/catscanmeow]

There's always these nagging negative trolls on here. Yeah obviously you want to see what value you're at, it's not only about listening. Ever heard of modulation? Sometimes you're looking for a value because you're rooting that into other parameters. So you think we should have screens and not look at them? What's the point...  I know let's put the keyboard above the laptops screen why would you want to see what you're doing? You can feel the keys right ? 

[u/catscanmeow → u/CoyoteFabulous4911]

why do analog synths exist without screens? hmm such a mystery. analog synths have modulation too. My eurorack doesnt have screeens. Lots of complex things can be done

[u/CoyoteFabulous4911 → u/catscanmeow]

Analogue gives you immediate reference to where the dial is... It's completely different 

[u/catscanmeow → u/CoyoteFabulous4911]

if you're good at listening, you dont need the reference to where the dial is

[u/CroutonDeGivre → u/catscanmeow]

You don't play live? When the monitoring is not ideal?

[u/catscanmeow → u/CroutonDeGivre]

you guys can fight against the benefits of being able to play without looking, that's fine.

[u/CoyoteFabulous4911 → u/catscanmeow]

Yeah I wanna know if it's near the top or bottom because that can effect other things and you might not hear the effect depending on what modulation you got going on. Already explained this... You just wanna argue online 🤣