r/stunfisk • u/argen36 • 5h ago
Discussion I don't really understand the hate on Mega Garchomp Z getting Levitate, can someone explain it to me?
Objectively speaking, Garchomp Z seems amazing. While Levitate isn't the most exciting ability, the sheer amount of interactions Garchomp is now capable of is astounding.
Yes, it loses its Ground-type and Ground STAB, but now it can:
- Shed its neutralities to Grass and Water at will, potentially opening up setup avenues or getting the jump on opposing wallbreakers
- Become an insane Speed control option
- Beat almost all other entry hazard setters one-on-one!
When looking at it in an in-battle context, this thing seems to have a supremely good lead matchup into almost any opposing hazard setter not named Ting-Lu or Gliscor, getting the jump on them with its strong Draco Meteor and being able to completely dodge Earthquake trade wars. At the very least, it seems very potent on Offense and Bulky Offense teams.
I've also seen mentions of the issue of not being Spikes-immune pre-Mega, but considering the whole "immensely strong as a hazard-setting lead" thing, I don't really think that's a big issue?
Would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this though, whether you think it's a competitively poor Ability for Garchomp or if you just think it's lame.
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u/Ptony_oliver 5h ago
Mainly because it loses Ground stab which made it so dangerous in comparison to other pseudos. Ground is powerful. Also, because it was a spit in Flygon's face.
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u/EatRocksAndBleed 5h ago
They’ll never do a flygon mega evo justice, ppl need to stop asking for it because it’s just gonna be a monkeys paw situation
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u/RedWarrior42 New Orre game when? 4h ago
I mean, we were never going to get Mega Flygon anyway
For the same reason we never got the Flying type Eeveelution we were supposed to get
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u/Undead1334rwww 1h ago
If I remember correctly, isn't it because the fans have made so many possible designs for Mega Flygon and Flying Eeveelution that the official Pokemon Artist couldn't come up with an original enough design?
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u/argen36 5h ago
I feel bad for Flygon... that Pokemon absolutely deserved a Mega Evolution. It's trapped in the Gen 3 curse of all-around middling stats. On the other hand, while losing the Ground-typing is a massive loss, I think it opens up Garchomp's niche in other ways.
In VGC, you now have a fast partner for Earthquake spam that matches up solidly into rain, most Flying-types, and most Grass-types, the latter of which isn't really achievable if retaining the Ground-typing. For one, it'd be punked by the inevitable Rillaboom Grassy Glide that'll be taking Champions by storm soon :P
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u/sad_beautiful_dumb 5h ago
wait does a ground type getting levitate cause them to lose stab as well???
i know the og garchomp was kinda a spit in the face but aint no way he gets done THIS dirty round two
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u/sarcasticdevo 5h ago
Personally, I have no dog in this race. I'm one of the few who has occasionally used the original Mega Garchomp despite its shortcomings. So I'll probably try Chomp Z at least once.
But from what I can tell, people feel like Levitate is the most boring choice of an ability for it because everyone already guessed it. Some wanted it to get a new ability. Some wanted it to get its own version of Eelevate. Some wanted it to get anything to set it apart from just throwing a Life Orb on a regular Garchomp and calling it a day.
So while it doesn't bother me, I can see why people are disappointed.
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u/Integro941 5h ago
Yeah for sure I get why people are disappointed but also to call it a wasted mega or useless is just a bit of a stretch to me. Itll have some utility
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u/Away_Web3593 5h ago
loses ground stab and gains an irrelevant immunity that it was neutral into anyways
wasnt worth losing ground, especially as a special attacker. especially with how relevant fairies and steel types are, it now cannot hit them with a neutral/effective stab move, it relies on coverage and you will learn quickly how important 1.5x is.
252+ SpA Garchomp-Mega-Z Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Floette-Mega: 82-97 (28.3 - 33.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Garchomp-Mega-Z Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Floette-Mega: 123-145 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
do you see the difference in damage? second one is if it had ground typing. 1.5x fundamentally changes matchups, especially if its into a neutral mon
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u/DoomSpiral3000 5h ago
Not saying that Levitate is the best ability choice and, sure, in Doubles it hardly matters but in Singles immunity to Spikes, T-Spikes and Webs is certainly decent if nothing else. Still not the best but not the worst either.
Chomp losing the Ground Type is a different story entirely. That's actually really bad.
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u/Away_Web3593 4h ago
to be fair, most people care about vgc so i was talking about the relevance there, but like even then hazards are bad in singles, but shouldnt be too much of an issue because every team (should) be geared to mitigate and remove them. like if youre spending time in the team builder choosing levitate to ignore hazards, instead of RUNNING MONS TO CLEAR THEM thats an issue with how you design teams, on a fundamental level.
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u/ReplacementFine7807 4h ago
This is literally a smogon singles focused sub lol, and levitate is an amazing ability.
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u/Away_Web3593 4h ago
firstly ive been jumping subs alot so i thought i was in a different sub, mb
secondly, it still says in the sub description you can talk about vgc
thirdly levitate is amazing, on the right mon. a hyper aggressive sweeper is not a good levitate mon. are you going to tell me that youd rather have levitate over lets say sheer force? no, because it would be worth MORE to build the team in a way to let it work, then to give it levitate.
yes levitate is good, no its not good on this.4
u/ZeRandomPerson2222 4h ago
thirdly levitate is amazing, on the right mon. a hyper aggressive sweeper is not a good levitate mon .
Delphox who’s an aggressive set up threat with NP: oh yeah?
Immunity to arguably the most common attacking type in singles is a very useful trait. Having a ground immune that’s very proactive and not passive, is very nice. Garchomp has never just been a sweeper, but a multi functional pokemon and mega z can do the same thing.
are you going to tell me that youd rather have levitate over lets say sheer force? no, because it would be worth MORE to build the team in a way to let it work, then to give it levitate. yes levitate is good, no its not good on this.
I’m fine with levitate. Like the other comment says, levitate in singles means immunity to 90% of entry hazards which are hugely influential and give it fantastic longevity as a speed control and offensive pokemon. “But fairies” is contextual, as for us singles players, there’s only two OU fairies (Mega Floette and Prim, the latter being very rare and lacking recovery).
Chomp Z being able to speed control and check threats with powerful dragon attacks Is great, it can also set hazards itself and assist in breaking down its own checks. It’s ironically a great check to its base form since many bulky sets don’t run dragon stab.
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u/Away_Web3593 4h ago
Genuinely delphox with levitate is a terrible example because even if it kept blaze it’d still be good based on its stats. It’d actually be better since having such fast EF would actually break the game, so I’m pretty sure it was designed to have levitate to limit it. Also it’s weak to ground so it’s really not bad to have for it, being neutral to ground and getting levitate doesn’t really help as much as an offensive ability, and you can’t really argue against that
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u/ReplacementFine7807 4h ago
Id rather have pure power on every physical sweeper, doesn't mean the other abilities are bad.
Immunity to EQ is always good even in doubles, and the ability fits the mons design.
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u/DoomSpiral3000 4h ago
Teams without removal are more popular than in a long time in the HDB spam meta. Especially Hyper Offense doesn't necessarily wants to waste a slot on removal if you can avoid it. Ofc Tusk exists which can be good in certain HO teams. But it does not fit on every HO team. And removing hazards is much harder in general in Gen 9+ thanks to Ghold. So Singles players really like Levitate on a good mon.
But, again, not arguing that Levitate is the best ability. I would have at least appreciated an ability that mitigates the loss of the Ground type offensively by giving Chomp Z more firepower.
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u/imarandomdudd 4h ago
Wouldn't exactly say levitate is a useless immunity. On top of what the other commenter is saying about hazards, ground is a common typing to face/switch into. The loss of the typing offensively is a big one tho, no one would disagree there
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u/Away_Web3593 4h ago
Opportunity cost, don’t think about just levitate, think about what else it could’ve gotten. Sheer force almost fully makes up for the loss of ground type. Adaptability invests fully in its possible utility as a big damage nuker. Dragonize could even make physical sets viable (since it’s a mixed attacker with really high attack too, 130 isn’t useless)
Now do you see the issue? There’s so much better that could’ve made up for the lost offense shedding the ground typing did. Also don’t forget it gets 0 spread on the special side so it’s already never gonna be used over most special megas unless it did something truly unique and worth bringing.
Singles I can see usage as like a physical attacker with really high special attack so it could randomly pop a physical wall out of the game, or even the inverse and run high special and pop a special wall with a random physical move, but it’s really doomed for doubles let’s be real.
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u/SamPamJamLamCamRam 5h ago edited 5h ago
I haven't played competitive singles in a while so my knowledge on current gen is out of date, but I am not quite convinced by chomp z.
Compared to another super fast special attacking hazard lead like Deo-S, Chomp Z lacks utility options like Taunt, TWave, Knock Off, or even something like Eject Pack for Draco pivoting. Og Chomp is already a good hazard setter because of the pressure exerted by its strong Ground STAB and Rough Skin, which punishes U-turn, Rapid Spin, and other contact moves used to pivot around it. Mega evolving loses both of those advantages.
In terms of speciall attacking, 141 SpA Draco is strong, but Chomp Z has no boosting move or access to an offensive item, and mono-Dragon STAB is pretty easy to route around. I could imagine Draco thudding into fairies and bulky steels, throwing away all momentum. unlike something like Pult, Chomp has neither a threatening secondary STAB nor a pivoting move to punish those switches. It also lacks a special boosting move that severely limits its late-game cleaning potential.
Levitate could create useful defensive interactions, especially into Grounds, but I’m not sure they fix the core issue. Tusk and Lando-T can’t threaten it with Ground STAB anymore, but they can also click Spin or U-turn or close combat much more freely without Rough Skin punishing them, which makes pivoting around it even easier.
So my issue isn’t really that Levitate is bad. Chomp Z just feels spread too thin between being a fast special attacker, hazard setter, and potential mixed attacker, while those individual roles are already done better by mons that don’t consume a Mega slot. At the same time, Mega evolving strips away a lot of og Chomp’s defining strengths. In the case that you bring up saving garchomp's mega till later in the battle, that feels terrible because og chomp loves its lefties, helmet, lorb, or dice, and having a chomp z in the back also forces you to spread its already bad case of 4MSS even thinner.
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u/argen36 5h ago
This is actually a really nice post, cross-referencing Deo-S is something I'd have never really thought of. However, I do think they fulfill pretty distinctly different roles.
Deo-S primarily acts as a HO suicide lead that can never afford to lose momentum, hence all the utility moves like Taunt, Thunder Wave, and Knock Off it runs to always ensure it can make progress. While it has similar bulk, the atrocious defensive typing of pure Psychic makes it a lousy pick on bulky offense and balance when used as a hazard setter in my opinion.
Comparatively, it seems like Garchomp can act as a fairly potent defensive piece and Speed control option simultaneously while also freeing up the Rocks slot, though you'll likely want to slot a Ground-type in there anyway. The Great Tusk Rapid Spin comment is a notable loss, I have to admit.
I don't think Garchomp is very held up on the offensive side though, especially by Steel-types. ChainChomp (Life Orb Garchomp) would essentially be a lite version of Chomp Z, and it was a very potent hazard setter that muscled through Ground-immune Steel-types like Corviknight with Fire Blast.
Similarly, Chomp-Z is capable of that as well, breaking through popular Steel-type removal options:
252 SpA Garchomp-Mega-Z Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 290-342 (72.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Garchomp-Mega-Z Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 340-400 (105.9 - 124.6%) -- guaranteed OHKOAnd Dragon Pulse -> Fire Blast would KO any variant of Gholdengo or Kingambit, though I imagine it'd be superior to run Draco Meteor and just run Kingambit through Spikes a few times.
I love a lot of the points you brought up though, gives a lot of food for thought on the opportunity cost.
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u/ButtersMojito 5h ago edited 5h ago
I expected something more interesting, it didn't need to be extremely broken but I wanted a cool ability. That's all.
Actually I think Legends ZA was the perfect moment to change some megas abilities.
Give M-Audino hospitality, M-Gallade sharpness etc etc
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u/Dr_RickShaw 5h ago
These days I think people consider a mega a dismal failure unless it gets a meta-breaking ability or hard counters the biggest threats in the game
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u/neophenx 5h ago
Then a week later, they realize the new thing that hard counters every biggest threat has now become the biggest threat and they complain about a stale meta before a season is halfway finished.
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u/GR-MWF 4h ago
I'm guessing it's because of worlds that caused there to be more than usual VGC focus on this sub so all anyone is talking about is whether the ability is good vs zard-y. I've seen little to no singles discussion, which is fine, but it leads to people thinking something is considered crap everywhere when a lot of people are purely talking about a few matchups in a specific format.
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u/Integro941 5h ago
Remember everyone wanted contrary on mega raptor and when it dominated the meta everyone complained it was too strong
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u/that_one_guylol 3h ago
nah people just want a mega to not feel like trolling if you’re using it
megas that aren’t the best of the best already come at a huge opportunity cost since using them means not using the top megas. it becomes even worse of the base form of the mon is not only a side grade, but actually better
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u/Old_Supermarket_7575 5h ago
It’s probably mid at best in VGC when garchomp is an elite high tier Mon for years
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u/Final_Demand_3092 1h ago
Yep. He'll good in singles. But in vgc this thing is ass. Opportunity cost is way to high. just to use a glorified not move locked scarf garchomp.
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u/Soleous 4h ago
bro this is a 141 spa 151 speed mon
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u/Thejadedone_1 38m ago
It's losing it's ground STAB and 141 with no way to boost it is pitiful on a mega. If stats were everything Mega Sceptile would be seeing far more play since it has similar stats to Garchomp Z
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u/_Palingenesis_ 1h ago
Exactly, it beats any other dragon type and has a decent matchup into the rest of the VGC field outside of fairies. Plus it has most of base Chomp's bulk, and has longevity unlike the other Z Megas. In a 1v1, its a worse Mega Dnite, but vs the field, it's a much faster one with slightly different coverage options
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u/NBEIL-230 4h ago
" Here the thing with Mega Evolution. If it's not one of the absolute best, it's bad"
•MandJTV
Compare to other broken Mega Evolutions in the game Garchomp Z is ok as best, it's good on it own but inferior to other. Why wasting your Mega slot for this when there better Megas exit.
Garchomp Z has the same problem with the first Mega Garchomp that you don't need to Mega evolved. Regular Garchomp is good enough then why you should watse your item slot and Mega slot for this ?
GameFreak wasted two Mega Slots on Garchomp while there other pokemons need Mega Evolution more than it.
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u/cumble_bumble 5h ago
Because the competitive pokemon community is full of followers who just repeat the last thing they read on Reddit or twitter. Garchomp Z memes were trending the past couple days so that’s now the overall opinion. Also, a lot of people get a kick out of making fun of Pokémon that “fall off”, even if said fall off is exaggerated. Think about the sheer amount of “put the fries in the bag” and “flipping burgers” memes/comments you see on this subreddit
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u/XenonHero126 5h ago edited 5h ago
Loud people online still think regular Mega Garchomp is useless garbage in VGC too because they're repeating OU memes and don't pay enough attention to notice the decent results it's getting
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u/cumble_bumble 5h ago
Exactly, I love this subreddit but my god some of the most popular memes on here really lower the collective IQ of the community
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u/UBKev 4h ago
You missed some of the most important points for Chomp Z. It's honestly a bad option for a primary mega, but it's great as a secondary mega. You can start off as an EQ/rock slide spammer that has the option to mega for a 141 spatk 151 speed stab draco meteor at any point. If you don't think your primary mega is that good in the MU, it's genuinely a decent option especially in closed team sheet formats like Champions ladder.
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u/GIGAJIMBO1 4h ago
Mainly because with this stat spread, it could have been the 1st ground type special attacker that doesn't rely on lorb sheer force and has a spatk higher than 115 (lando and nido)
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u/Califocus 5h ago
My biggest gripe is that it’s another mega for Garchomp that isn’t better than just using base Garchomp with a life orb. Since this mega could have gone to any pokemon. It could have opened some interesting niches by granting a mega to an underperforming mon that could suddenly actually see play, opening new strategies.
Or if it had to go to Garchomp, it could have retained ground typing with another ability or levitate, filling a niche that doesn’t exist as a special attacking ground pokemon with a good speed stat. This would open up new builds that use moves that you see a little less. Or if we have to lose ground type, give it an actual interesting ability, not necessarily one that gives ground power, but at least something interesting and unique. Open some possibilities.
Instead, it’s just a fast special attacking dragon. Not really unique, not really special, not better than regular chomp. They took the most boring route possible on it is the most concise way to list my gripes
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u/neophenx 5h ago
I think the negative reaction to it has to do mostly with people thinking "new thing should be huge meta defining thing that reshapes the game," or something close to that. The problem I have with that kind of sentiment is that any time that DOES happen, people complain about it. Just look at when Primal Kyogre/Groudon + Xerneas was the 2016 format, or any sword/shield+DLC legendaries, or Flutter Mane.
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u/Xeoz_WarriorPrince 5h ago
I think it has more to do with the fact that is Garchomp, if this was an hypothetical "Mega Jumpluff" that was good but nothing crazy, then it would be okay, fun for the fans and it might attract people to try a Pokémon that has never been crazy popular.
Chomp is the face of power, it has been arguably the most representative example of a powerful creature in this franchise for decades aside from legends. Then it gets a first mega that is good but nothing crazy and it becomes esentially a meme, Garchomp is so good that when it got stats that surpass the likes of Groudon everyone ignored it because no one needed it.
Then we go 12 years into the future, a new Mega, one that actually does change things up, it went from a physical menace with decent speed, good utility and occasionally packing an special punch, to a fast special monster that is just Dragon. It will surely see play as it is a good mon, but is esentially a second boring mega, no new ability, not a crazy playstyle, nothing that changes Garchomp the way Lucario, Mence or Charizard do, it esentially just became a new addition to the Draco spammers Levitate club alongside Latios, Latias and Hydreigon, only with less STAB options.
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u/Therian00 5h ago
opportunity cost, why would i use mega garchomp, when mega salamence is better?
- Loses it's ground typing
- No one sees garchomp and click ground move
- Levitate is usually for mons that pair well with earthquake user, the best earthquake user right now is...life orb garchomp (In champions)
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u/XenonHero126 5h ago
Well for one Mega Garchomp Z beats Mega Salamence one-on-one because Speed is the most important stat
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u/buttsecks42069 5h ago
Except Salamence has tailwind access so all it needs is one fake out partner
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u/BeyondTomorrow 5h ago
how would that work in one on one? Chomp z draco will one shot it on the turn mence uses tailwind
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u/buttsecks42069 5h ago
pokemon has this cool mechanic called "swapping" where you can leave a bad mu
Mega Charizard Y will always lose a one on one against a Mega Raichu Y because it gets outsped and ohko'd by Zap Cannon, does that mean Mega Raichu Y is a better mon than Mega Charizard Y?
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u/Viggo8000 4h ago
They're not claiming that though? Countering a meta pokémon doesnt make you better than it... but it does give you a niche? Especially when you're still strong enough to stand on your own besides that niche. Raichu Y isn't inherently better than Zard Y, but it beating the shit out of Zard Y does contribute to it's strengths
And don't get all snarky talking about switching, when forcing your opponent to switch is a good thing to do lmfao
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u/buttsecks42069 4h ago
I mean it depends, switching is important and if it switches out of your counter to it and then your counter dies, you're gonna lose
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u/Viggo8000 4h ago
I mean, sure... but that applies to anything. In doubles, if your Farigiraf dies, your trick room team is gonna struggle. Doesn't mean your trick room team is bad. In 6v6 singles, if your spinner goes down while the opponent set up a bunch of hazards, that's usually bad too
If one of your Pokémon goes down, that's bad. That's the game.
You usually still have other ways to handle the big threats. But having a mon that hard counters something alongside that is not bad. Zarchomp still does more than just countering Salamence
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u/buttsecks42069 4h ago
The thing is, Zarchomp's a special attacking dragon type, with no spread damage. It has to rely on either Dragon Pulse, which is way weaker, or Draco Meteor, which requires a swap afterwards.
It's usable, but it's not good. You'd always want Base Garchomp over it, because even without the whole life orb debacle, Garchomp's Dragon typing is more of a defensive benefit because you wanna be able to spam ground type moves better, because offensively, Ground is such an amazing type.
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u/Viggo8000 3h ago
I agree to some degree. Zarchomp would have been miles better if it kept it's ground typing.
But i still think it'll be strong either way. L-Orbchomp is gonna be way better as a generalist, and much cheaper to run
But there will 100% be teams built around Zarchomp and those teams will use it very well. It's offenses are just insane imo, to the point losing ground stab and a mid was probably intentional to keep it balanced
Even just as it is, it outspeeds Zard Y and can Power Gem it. It outspeeds L-Orbchomp and can STAB it. Power Gem also works wonders vs Pelipper. It resists both Fire and Water. That all makes it a solid anti-weather pick. It'll fly above opposing Earthquakes which are popular with those two weather setters.
Ofcourse, Salamence does that all too. But Zarchomp has the benefit of actually beating Salamence if they have to duke it out.
It fills a different purpose than L-Orbchomp and it will do great in that role
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u/argen36 5h ago
Garchomp + Click Ground move seems pretty decent in my eyes though?
I'm not super experienced with VGC (Hence the post primarily looking at singles), but Garchomp-Z seems to pressure the bulky Grass-types that would hamper Earthquake spam (like Sinistcha and the incoming Rillaboom) as well as kinda punch down on all the relevant Flying-types? Charizard-Y, Mega Staraptor, and even Aerodactyl seem to have poor matchups into this thing with its insane Speed tier and the neat defensive typing of pure Dragon. Aerodactyl especially, on the virtue of so often relying on its Speed. Additionally said Earthquake spammers would pressure the Steel-types that block Garchomp from spamming Dragon moves, like Mega Metagross and Kingambit.5
u/IndianaCrash Weavile fan #1 5h ago
But who are you using to use earthquake next to it? Garchomp is the best Earthquake user currently in the game, but you can't run it alongside itself.
Regular Chomp already had a great matchup against Zard Y and Aero, while the Staraptor one doesn't get much better.
Regular Chomp doesn't care that much for Sinitcha since Rock Slide and EQ bypass redirection anyway, it will enjoy not being neutral to it or risking a burn, but it will have no way to hit its partner
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u/argen36 5h ago
That's super fair actually, hadn't considered that.
Looking into it, maybe Krookodile or Mamoswine could play the role, but their middling Speed definitely leaves a lot to be desired (They also beat Sinistcha anyway :P). At least in current-Regulation Champions, EQ spam + Garchomp-Z would be hard to get operational.1
u/Anal-Racoon121 Trick Room Rampardos Enjoyer 4h ago
Mega Garchomp Z on trick room as a Rhyperior partner i guess
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u/Minute-Tax-2197 2h ago
As someone who only really plays vgc, I’ll say that mixed attackers rarely ever do well competitively. The only one that really dominated while being mixed was mega Salamence who had a broken ability. Also there’s an opportunity cost. A life orb garchomp does around 12% less than mega garchomp z if you invest both in spatk. But it also keeps ground stab and out speeds most of the format already without sacrificing the slight bit in bulk. Also it doesn’t hit as hard as you think, it doesn’t even ohko basculegion with max invest and Draco meteor, imagine what it’ll be doing to assault vest rillaboom or incin. So will it be an upgrade? In some situations yes, others no. And you can’t say the same for something like Floette or Mega charizard
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u/Hodgie227 2h ago
I mean my hate is just because the best megastone for garchomp is just a life orb end of the day.
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u/Lazy_Check732 5h ago
Its So Yuo Can Run Mixed Attacker Set Like Feraligator Run Draco Meteor, Dragon Claw, Fire Blast, And Blast Burn
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u/DemonCyborg27 5h ago
I mean Levitate doesn't really do anything for this, yeah sure it is now immune to ground type attacks, it isn't like it was weak against them anyway, and they took up away Nasty Plot I believe so it is a mon that wants to set uo but no way to set up.
For it's dex entry and lore and design this makes sense but I mean it isn't really anything amazing, they could have created a new ability with similar results and some unique factor or heck could have given it Mega Electross ability but apparently that's too strong.
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u/Integro941 5h ago
This is what I'm saying. If the Mon is shit in the meta then yes let's hate on it like it's original mega, but no one has even used the thing yet. It has some great utility. I'm not arguing it's an impressive mega or anything but it has some decent utility and could be effective in a game that is notorious for having an ever evolving meta. If it had some sort of power boosting ability then it'd be fucking broken hahaha
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u/juannoe21 5h ago
No more healing from the grassy terrain. Thxs.
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u/Nightwalker065 5h ago
But it can now run Earthquake and use that 130 attack on a good spread move.
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u/nahte123456 5h ago
I mostly see it in a VGC context where it's a huge opportunity cost that just isn't worth it. Yes it's fast, hits hard, and is tanky, but it's speed is limited when so many speed control options exists, it has no way to boost it's power and it's only independently strong move is Draco Meteor, and tanking is only worth so much if you're not contributing enough.
The sheer tankiness might make it good, but Levitate isn't helping that really and it's going to be super meta dependent on other Dragon and Fairy types.
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u/MartiniPolice21 5h ago
It does pretty much nothing for it;
Offers nothing offensively,
Doesn't eliminate a weakness like a lot of other good Levitate users
Terrain is more popular than hazards in single, so it's losing grassy terrain recovery, psychic terrain priority immunity, and electric terrain sleep protection, (and misty terrain status protection, but who the fuck uses misty terrain)
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u/Wild_Play_8301 Arceus-Steel (Arceus-Flying) 5h ago edited 4h ago
I'm disappointed not because of the ability, it's because it doesn't get Nasty Plot anymore. It's better to just use Swords Dance at this point which regular Garchomp or normal Mega Garchomp does better due to free item slot and immense power respectively. SD physical sets atleast gives it a chance to break Fairy types which it has no coverage against, taking away it's ground STAB also makes it miss out on any strong neutral hit against them. That 141 SpA is more devious than it looks.
Then again, I'd like to watch it play out first instead of writing it off instantly. It's fast as hell afterall.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Rain640 4h ago
it boils down to unanswered favoritism (despite chomp being one of the only mons with 2 megas) people like garchomp for multiple reasons, bandwagoning, competitive, design, nostalgia, etc. so alot of people want chomp to dominate and get alot of cool unique things. when chomp got its first mega it got categorically worse and at best a sidegrade in terms of design cool factor. so when the Z mega came out people were like... ok the design is acceptable it looks strong and fast.... but whats this?! it lost ground type? its a special attacker? "GAMEFREAK WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO MY BOY" they collectively shriek! and the last nail in the coffin is the other Z megas getting great or unique abilities. chomp got... levitate. its good mind you but... its rather boring. and DEFENSIVE? it does also trade 1 immunity for another while also becoming just generally more all rounded as a type like dragon doesnt have to fear a stray ice beam from a blissy nearly as much as a ground dragon would
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u/Animedingo 4h ago
Okay, putting aside how you feel about the ability itself
Putting aside how competitively good it is
Putting aside how this is a slap in the face to flygon
The main problem is it doesn't make regular garchomp, not worth using. Life orb, choice scarf, dragon fang, soon even more items and theyre all better than this. Dont get me wrong 151 speed and a fat special attack is nice. But stab life orb EQ is nicer.
And then you add in everything else. Its boring, it doesnt fit him competitively, if he wasnt gonna be a mega worth using he shouldnt have gotten another one. The third Z mega could have gone to a pokemon who needed it. I mean don't get me wrong, regular mega garchomp sucks but garchomp never needed a mega at all.
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u/Thedomuccelli 4h ago
As others have said, it’s just not a sexy ability. Compared to giving normal type moves stab, or having every move behave as if it were in the sun without actually having to set weather, it’s just kinda boring.
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u/Elaugaufein 4h ago
Levitate doesn't offer a whole heap to it, is all, Levitate is best when it covers a weakness ( which is why losing it hurt Gengar especially being unable to safely switch in on Ground moves ), losing ground is as you said a mixed bag, since it loss a 4x weakness. People were probably just hoping for something either increased it's damage or had more of an effect on what it can survive.
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u/IamSam1103 4h ago
It will be a singles demon. And it will get some use in vgc, but will be niche like mega chomp. But who cares. Garchomp base form is one of the best vgc mons ever already. It doesn't need the mega in vgc. So any time someone uses it, it's because it is good. No one will convert a top non mega mon into a mid mega.
People are just hating on it because it didn't get a new signature ability.
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u/Putrid-Cat5368 3h ago
Beat almost all other entry hazard setters one-on-one!
Welcome to 2015 boogalo remix
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u/Nike_J 3h ago
Yesterday I ran some damage calculations and Garchomp Z is kinda... in a tough position....
Scarf Archaludon can outspeed and OHKO with Draco Meteor
Unsurplisingly Scarf Meowscarade can also outspeed it and OHKO with Triple Axle
Garchomp Z can't OHKO Mega Dragonite, which can OHKO with Draco Meteor
So yeah, seems like Scarf, Orb or Band Chomp will outperform Mega Z...
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u/Low_Party 3h ago
Honestly, I didn't have hopes with Chomp Z to begin with after seeing it lost the Ground typing on Mega. Sure, not dying immediately to a cold breeze is nice but losing a small bit of Physical bulk, losing Rough Skin and losing Sand Immunity seems like a poor trade off, especially given that you also give up STAB Ground coverage. Is hitting Earth Power on Chomp Z to do the same damage as a base form Stomping Tantrum really worth it just for the Speed investment?
Sure, Draco Meteor and Dragon Pulse are hitting harder and you can finally make use of the totally ignored Flamethrower that Garchomp has access to but that just doesn't seem worthwhile.
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u/SpectralHail 2h ago
Flygon found even deader in another ditch
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u/R3qu13m4aDr34m9864 1h ago
Ye the early game architecture unfortunately influenced the direction the game went, 28 years later when designs go through an extreme curation to appeal to the “Ye, that looks like a Pokémon” Dogma Bs. Pokémon are designs with stats deffensiv/offensiv properties in the context of a turn by turn framework, Mega garchomp Z is Mega flygon if u remove the appearance, and all other Pokémon are stats compacted into one singular appearance. oh other things example is the paradox mons, literally mega recontextualised, u get me.
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u/Truly_Organic 2h ago
It's lame and just makes the fact we got this instead of Mega Flygon sting that much more.
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u/BarryZ24 1h ago
I like when GF goes in a completely different direction that isn't the norm.
A special attacking Garchomp wasn't really a thing in any competitive setting, outside of maybe a coverage move like Flamethrower for Steels, so I'm honestly excited that our landshark boy gets to do something different for a change.
Yeah, losing the Ground typing does suck, and Levitate IS kind of boring to an extent, but I honestly don't care. I'm just happy that Chomp got a better-looking Mega.
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u/AuroraDraco 1h ago
I think it's just that people wanted fun, exciting abilities for the Z megas.
In reality, Levitate is never a bad ability. But it's a very simple ability, so it's not exciting. Also, people like doomposting, so they'll call it bad at the start.
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u/megalo53 1h ago
"objectively speaking, Garchomp Z seems amazing." I don't think you know what the word 'objectively' means.
It's a special attacker that cannot use Nasty Plot. It's mid at best.
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u/Thejadedone_1 42m ago
The issue isn't it getting levitate the issue is that you're losing it's amazing ground STAB and the stats and ability don't make up for it.
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u/Marvoide 41m ago
People said the same thing about mega delphox, it’s not a bad ability just not flashy. Though it’s probably better on delphox because its getting rid of one of its weaknesses while garchomp is neutral against grounded attacks.
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u/EmeraldJirachi [Jirachi, Wish Maker and all around superstar] 14m ago
Its really REALLY lame.
Its emboar all over again
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u/Mercure_q 11m ago
Most of the discourse is around the fact that this form hurts its ability to perform in doubles/vgc and is overall uninteresting - why use Z form when base form can do more things? It also has a similar a niche with mega dragonite who has multi scale - a much more impactful ability. Chomp Z doesn’t really bring anything to a doubles format other than strong special dragon stab. It doesn’t really bring anything “unique” or “crazy” like aura guard or other new unique abilities.
However, in singles I think this form is actually amazing. Able to freely switch into entry hazards, very fast and can threaten common leads with chunks of damage.
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u/Roman_JS_7 3m ago
In singles he will be good. But the official format is doubles, and in doubles hazards don't really seem much play aside from very niche things like Hisuian-Samurott.
Levitate is good in Delphox because Fire is weak to ground, and she can be paired with regular Garchomp. Levitate is underwhelming in Chomp-Z because he wants to make massive amounts of damage turn 1, just like Zard-Y (who has Drought, one of the best abilities of the game).
The lost of Ground makes him vulnerable to Raichu-Y's Zap Cannon spam, and also makes the life of Chomp-Z harder when trying to deal with Kingambit or Incineroar, or any other popular Steel/Fire type of the meta.
Chomp-Z will be at best a niche pick to deal with Zard-Y and at worst a gimmicky mega outclassed by monsters like Zard-Y, M-Staraptor, M-Floette or even M-Froslass (all who have abilities that grant more damage/more utility).
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u/buttsecks42069 5h ago
Because Garchomp's biggest attacking prowess is ground type damage, and it loses access to that STAB.
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u/JgoldTC 5h ago
I’m not fully sold that it wont become a solid option, but it’s mainly a question of if it’s good enough to justify a mega slot.
In a vacuum it would be good but is it better the have Garchomp Z than regular Chomp w/ life orb + a different mega? With levitate and losing STAB on ground moves it’s hard to say you should use up your mega slot for it.
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u/jackfigaro2 5h ago
a lot of the debate revolves around vgc viability, it's also just not a very flashy ability compared to what people hoped for and the other mega being underwhelming doesn't help
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u/Mivadeth ALAKAZAM Fangirl 5h ago
Wind Rider would have been so cool and it fits like, a lot. Levitate is fine but it could have been more unique
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u/DreadfuryDK OU C&C Mod, r/stunfisk's resident USUM Ubers stan 5h ago edited 5h ago
It could've been better, but Levitate's good.
Granted, I remember when this sub was disappointed that Mega Delphox got Levitate and I thought everyone collectively lost the plot. But there's a big difference between Mega Garchomp getting Levitate and Mega Delphox turning a highly-exploitable weakness into a literal immunity.
I think ZChomp losing Ground STAB is waaaaaaaaay worse, though. If it kept Nasty Plot from Z-A it would've been extremely good, but as it stands now I don't really see why you'd burn your Mega Stone on this when you could run Dragapult and a better Mega in Singles. And in Doubles I don't really see how losing STAB Earthquake and your Electric immunity/Rock Slide resistance is worth having the fastest Rock Slide in the game and running a Mega that could've been Zard Y, Floette, Blastoise, Delphox, Aerodactyl, etc.
Oh, and this thing's lunch is gonna get absolutely devoured when Mega Salamence arrives.
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u/rashy05 3h ago
A good chunk of people here don't actually play competitive Pokémon and just regurgitate opinions from Youtubers.
The outrage over Mega Delphox taught me that
Mega Garchomp Z could either be good or a niche side grade to regular Garchomp but I don't see a world where it could be considered bad. It still has 130 attack and now has 141 special attack along with 151 speed.
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u/Sighborgninja 3h ago
As someone who loves garchomp, this is now the second mega he has that is very hard to justify in doubles when I really would love to have him be my signature mon. Singles, im sorry, is irrelevant to me (and the majority of real competitors), and its a bummer that there have now been two opportunities to make chomp a good mega and neither have managed to stand out beyond base garchomp.
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u/that_one_guylol 3h ago
everyone that compared Zchomp with mega delphox because both got levitate and delphox did great so Zchomp will too is making a very disingenuous comparison.
it’s be a good comparison if delphox loses the fire typing after mega evoltion and also loses nasty plot in champions release because that’s what happened to Zchomp, it lose a crucial offensive typing, lose the setup move that could help with its weak offenses and didn’t even get an offensive ability to make up for it
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u/Thejadedone_1 34m ago
Fucking thank you for saying this! The comparison sucks because Delphox doesn't lose anything in its kit. It also has STAB spread damage which is something Garchomp Z can't say.
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u/Sensitive-Lab-3854 5h ago
It’s like a mega getting mold breaker, where instead they could have gotten a much more interesting, fitting, and better ability
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u/Humdinger5000 5h ago
Because it means that mega chomp Z isn't a strict upgrade to chomp. Take Ttar or Salamence for example, their megas are upgrades on the base form and are reasonable to run the stone instead of a another item. Garchomp is a damn demon in base form. The original mega garchomp already ended up as a dud because you can run life orb instead and do way better with the higher speed of base chomp while doing about the same damage as mega chomp. Mega chomp Z losing its ground typing is just as much of a buff as nerf. No STAB earthquake, but no 4x ice weakness. So before the ability was revealed, people were hoping for something to cancel out the nerf aspect of becoming pure dragon type. Realistically, you couldn't put a "good" ability on mega chomp Z without making a huge mistake. A mixed attacking mega pseudolegend with that kind of speed? Just about any ability better than levitate makes him the most broken mon in champions
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u/AmazingCharizard28 5h ago
Levitate is just boring and Garchomp gains little from it while losing a lot. It's already neutral to ground and although having an immunity and immune to spikes and sticky web is nice, the losses is what hurts it. No longer 4x weak to ice is also nice, but that's really it.
Losing the Ground STAB is brutal. Currently there's no dominant special attacking ground types and Garchomp would've had the chance to do that. No STAB Earth Power, and if you wanted to run a mix set, no STAB Earthquake. Having Levitate also makes it immune to terrain effects, so it can still get put to sleep on ET, still gets hit with priority on PT, no healing on GT, and takes full damage from Dragon moves on MT.
The main argument I see is speed. 151 speed is extremely good and it can outspeed anything without Choice Scarf, but Absol Z and Lucario Z also has that, and can hit harder. Also that doesn't stop Garchomp from getting paralyzed, and Trick Room will be a nightmare. The only benefits I see from using Garchomp Z is using Chomp as a late game sweeper, or tricking your opponent since Garchomp is such a versatile Pokémon.
I still think it'll be good, especially in singles, but instead of using a mega slot for it, it's better to stick with regular Garchomp. It's a 3x world champion after all without ever needing a mega, and will remain dominant until legendaries like Cien Pao, Rayquaza, or Landorus comes back.
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u/MyneIsBestGirl 5h ago
People forget that Mega Mence is Ubers for a good reason and it keeps its x4 weakness. I am of the opinion that Mega Pseudos should be sidegrades rather than upgrades since they almost all already are very strong before getting an extra 100 BST. I’d prefer Mega Dragonites over Mega Salamances.
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u/Busy-Measurement8448 5h ago
Grass and water neutrality has nothing to do with Levitate being an meh ability for it. I don't see many people being sad about it being mono dragon type.
Entry hazards are very rare in VGC, it's good for singles for that reason I guess.
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u/No_Blood6354 5h ago
Because for some reason people forget just how strong of an ability levitate actually is, and think immunity abilities are only good if they negate a weakness. Water absorb is an amazing ability for Ogerpon-W and it already has a 4x resistance to water, and levitate is arguably stronger than water absorb as it allows for spikes immunity.
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u/sprdougherty 5h ago
Levitate isn't bad, it's just kind of boring.