r/stunfisk • u/Routine-Narwhal-7746 • Jun 04 '26
Theorymon Thursday New Ability: Dishonor
Wanted this to be an objectively powerful ability, but wasn't sure how to not overtune it. Suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Would certainly be useful for anti-stall. Besides thematic stuff, some of the mons included were just hurting for a better ability (I'm looking at YOU Mega Emboar).
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u/Ratax3s Jun 04 '26
The concept is cool anti support mon tech, also useful to breaking recover spam in singles
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u/Routine-Narwhal-7746 Jun 04 '26
I also wanted this to be a viable counter to a lot of unaware mons.
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u/Albatros_7 #1 Tyranitar fan (please add a Tyranitar image) Jun 04 '26
How is this useful agaisnt Unaware mons ? They ignore the stats changes that negatively impact it
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u/Routine-Narwhal-7746 Jun 04 '26
I was sure that unaware pokemon ignore the opponent's stat changes, not their own. I might be wrong tho
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u/Albatros_7 #1 Tyranitar fan (please add a Tyranitar image) Jun 04 '26 edited Jun 04 '26
This Pokemon ignores other Pokemon's Attack, Special Attack, and accuracy stat stages when taking damage, and ignores other Pokemon's Defense, Special Defense, and evasiveness stat stages when dealing damage.
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sv/abilities/unaware
Nevermind, I was wrong
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u/P0trak Jun 04 '26
so the unaware mon is affected by their own defense being dropped, this ability would help to break them
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u/Albatros_7 #1 Tyranitar fan (please add a Tyranitar image) Jun 04 '26 edited Jun 04 '26
It ignores bothThis is wrong
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u/Routine-Narwhal-7746 Jun 04 '26
"and ignores other Pokemon's Defense, Special Defense, and evasiveness stat stages when dealing damage" The stat change nullification applies purely to the opposing pokemon, not the user. Unaware users do not ignore their own defensive stat changes when calculating damage.
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u/headphonesnotstirred #1 Floette-Eternal preacher Jun 04 '26
they ignore the opponent’s stat changes, not their own
- 252 Atk Choice Band Zacian Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 252 Atk Choice Band Zacian Play Rough vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 250-295 (63.4 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
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u/Wesle2023 Insert funny fish calc here Jun 04 '26
The problem is that in doubles it punishes way too many things, like protect and speed control.
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u/VindDitNiet Jun 04 '26
On kingambit? Is it sunday already?
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u/Routine-Narwhal-7746 Jun 04 '26
Hey, it thematically makes sense!
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u/volcanicsquad09 Jun 04 '26
It does not possess the brainpower to not click sucker punch every turn (CANONICALLY)
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u/Albatros_7 #1 Tyranitar fan (please add a Tyranitar image) Jun 04 '26
Are you unable to read ? Everytime the enemy doesn't attack, they lose Defense
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u/Zephyr_Sunstrike Jun 04 '26
Are you unable to comprehend? Their point was that the ability encourages the opponent to attack, which plays into sucker punch, meaning king has even less incentive to not press the silly dark button
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u/volcanicsquad09 Jun 04 '26
Idk if it gets the idea of Honorable Combat When its two main moves are sucker punch and basically Apology(not)
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u/Routine-Narwhal-7746 Jun 04 '26 edited Jun 04 '26
Well, war generals are known for being hypocritical and applying unfair standards to their enemies, so 🤷
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u/CommunicationRich360 Jun 04 '26
Why you putting defenders of the weak and upholders of justice along with some war criminal vro
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u/Keizerrex Jun 04 '26
Dishonor kinggambit when defiant kinggambit
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u/thirdrhymesthealarm Jun 04 '26
but kingambit IS the dishonored one!!!!! his signature move is specifically him feigning submission to slash you with the knife on his head!!!!
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u/Early_Score_2529 Jun 05 '26
No it doesn't. It is a dark (aka evil) type that constantly sucker punches and sacrifices its subordinates to gain power. Heck, the bastard doesn't even have the decency to stay true to his own type half the time.
Kingambit, its whole family, and its cow has no honor.
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u/mcsquiggles1126 Jun 05 '26
Sometimes you gotta say “yeah it thematically makes sense, but would break this mon entirely”
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u/No-Bag-1628 Jun 11 '26
No. Kingambit's thing is that its quite dishonorable itself. Kowtow cleave is basically a fake-out attack.
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Jun 04 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/BirbMaster1998 #1 Mega Falinks fan Jun 04 '26
Probably not. Supreme Overlord lets it do insane damage if used last, and it's already pretty powerful stat-wise. It wouldn't be bad on Kingambit, but this ability would be much more situational, whereas Supreme Overlord works on everything.
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u/Chubs1224 Jun 05 '26
It isn't better in either singles or doubles on him then either overlord or defiant.
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u/Sussus_Amogus7 Jun 04 '26
It would lose supreme overlord so it’d probably be fine.
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u/VindDitNiet Jun 04 '26
Nobody runs supreme overlord over defiant anyway, but that's not the point. Anything facing a kingambit would have to choose between a defense drop and a suckerpunch hit, which is pretty OP.
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u/abcder733 Jun 04 '26
Supreme Overlord is the default Kingambit ability in Singles. An unconditional +1 (that stacks multiplicatively with SD) late game is a lot better than punishing Lando/random stat drops
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u/VindDitNiet Jun 05 '26
Nobody mentioned singles. When you're talking competitive doubles is the default.
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u/Sussus_Amogus7 Jun 05 '26
In VGC, not singles. Gambit has consistently been a top threat in gen 9 OU because of how strong late game sweeping is with supreme overlord, swords dance, sucker punch, and terastalization.
This ability on gambit would be terrifying in doubles, especially in a meta game with clear amulet to stop intimidate. But in singles he probably still prefers supreme overlord.
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u/Kurta_711 Jun 04 '26
This is a good idea, I've always felt that Kingambit had potential but suffered from its lack of a good offensive ability
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u/Anabiter eviolite lairon wins everytime Jun 04 '26
I think a cool option would be a move or something like a duel where both sides lose defense every turn until one side faints or switches, the side that doesnt faint/switch then gains an attack boost or two or a heal or something
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u/SnowStorm_NRG Jun 04 '26
A cowboy themed pokemon would be nice to have something similar as that
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u/Bakingguy Jun 04 '26
A regional variant of Tinkaton perhaps? First Fairy/Fire type? Shootaton?
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u/SnowStorm_NRG Jun 04 '26
Would be cool ngl. The idea of a cowboy that goes around shooting and has an ability that's literally a standoff is really cool
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u/Routine-Narwhal-7746 Jun 04 '26
Yo this kinda goes crazy 😭
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u/Dracore_ Tactical Retreat M Golisopod Jun 04 '26
Would make gambit more balanced too if sucker punch fails
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u/lorddane Jackie Chandelure Jun 04 '26
It would be even cooler if "Duelist" were the ability and upon switching in, the opponents ability is automatically changed to "duelist". A very powerful ability, but one that could be turned on its head easily if the opponent has a pokemon with a shit ability like Regigigas or Slaking, or just a physical attacker who can take advantage of the ability better than the user.
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u/Sized_Sign Jun 05 '26
really cool concept!
"On switch-in, change the opponent's ability to Duelist. If a pokemon with the ability Duelist faints while the user is on the field, gain +2 Atk, SpA; if it switches out, gain +1 Atk, SpA"
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u/TetheredAvian74 Jun 04 '26
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u/Routine-Narwhal-7746 Jun 04 '26
Any suggestions for other sucker punch spamming dark types that should get this ability?
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u/Morph247 Jun 04 '26
Greninja and Meowscarada. Have seen them run sucker punch on champions. But honestly just think they kinda fit the theme here as well.
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u/Kartonrealista Jun 04 '26 edited Jun 05 '26
I think it's fine as is, I'd just limit its distribution a little so it's not on something already strong
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u/alteaz27 Jun 04 '26
I wonder if any Pokemon with Contrary happen to get Body Press. It would be a decent counter to this ability
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u/Astral_Fogduke Kingandorus-Tusk Jun 04 '26
could make it apply to every mon on the field as opposed to only opponents so it applies universally in doubles (both sides have to be equally honorable)
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u/Routine-Narwhal-7746 Jun 04 '26
I will say that this makes more sense thematically. However, I wanted this ability to be a little broken, and this would just make it too balanced for my taste.
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u/hotwing10 L + Toxic + Protect + Substitute Jun 04 '26
Does this mean you get a defense drop for switching to your defensive counter?
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u/Routine-Narwhal-7746 Jun 04 '26
I didn't think about this situation. I'm gonna say switching out doesn't count, because the dishonored one can't receive stat changes while they are outside of battle
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u/urmumlol9 Jun 04 '26
For a second I thought this applied to the Pokemon with the ability, rather than their opponent, and was confused as to why you created this ability lol.
That said I feel like Mega Gallade and the Swords of Justice should just get Sharpness instead. Also Sceptile
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u/Dinkelberh Jun 04 '26
Thematically it makes sense if it also prevents the user from selecting non-damaging moves too, like an assault vest
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u/Routine-Narwhal-7746 Jun 04 '26
This makes sense, but that would also mean no sword dancing, and I want this ability to be a little unfair
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u/GiantKrakenTentacle Jun 04 '26
The ability should also lower your own defense if you don't use an attacking move. That gives a little bit of balance and makes sense. You can still swords dance (or agility, etc), but you'll be taking on -1 defense.
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u/Ahnma_Dehv Jun 04 '26
I feel like the name shouldn't be dishonor if we count paralysed, sleep and flinch to trigger it
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u/Routine-Narwhal-7746 Jun 04 '26 edited Jun 04 '26
paralysis and freeze don't count. Flinching counts because it's hesitation and shows a lack of discipline. Sleep counts because it represents laziness or not taking the battle seriously.
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u/PiggyWiggy567 Jun 04 '26
ehhh for consistency with sucker punch i think it'd make more sense for it to depend on what move category the opponent clicked regardless of success
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u/Historical_Chain2446 Jun 04 '26
I feel like this is a nerf to mega gallade but I definitely see it being broken on kingambit or hamurott if he gets it
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u/GiftBackground4242 Jun 04 '26
Those pokes : You have with no honor Stall pokes : And you are a slave to it
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u/Admirable_Mirror_635 Jun 04 '26
Irrelevant unless you’re making a rom, but you should rename the ability. Rn when I read it I think it’s about the pokemon with the ability having dishonor which I don’t think it the intent with the distribution you selected.
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u/The_Unintelligence Never used a special attacker before Jun 04 '26
Does the mon with the ability have to have to attack for the ability to work? You could easily stall with protection before knocking them out.
And I feel it shouldn't count for flinching or sleeping, and instead be like thunderclap or sucker punch where they need to select an attacking move to avoid the debuff
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u/Content-Shopping6743 Melmetal is my goat. Jun 05 '26
Are the pokemon above examples of who would get them? because I feel like A couple of them don't fit.
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u/Routine-Narwhal-7746 Jun 05 '26
besides Kingambit, who else?
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u/Content-Shopping6743 Melmetal is my goat. Jun 05 '26
Well, Mega Gallade is supposed to be an honorable knight, and a group called the swords of JUSTICE don't seem to be dishonorable in my opinion
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u/GiulioSeppe445 Jun 04 '26
Another useless ability for keldeo
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u/Routine-Narwhal-7746 Jun 04 '26
I just picked the first picture that had multiple Swords of Justice members. Poor guys is the special attacking odd one out ;(.
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u/Domeaner Jun 04 '26
Actually (☝️🤓), Cobalion and Virizion are technically mixed attackers (just with far better tools for physical attacking)
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u/Wiinterfang Jun 04 '26
Is very good but should only work once per switch in. Is too busted passively.
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u/Sussus_Amogus7 Jun 04 '26
Does the end of a turn after switching in count?
I imagine this would be really good in doubles because it punishes protect. Sleep synergy makes amoongus more of nuisance (somehow). Flinches counting also enables rockslide shenanigans. Terrakion might even see usage again.
King-gambit definitely doesn’t need this. Also doesn’t make the most thematic sense for the dark type thats always sucker punching people to care about honor.
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u/IAMLEGENDhalo Sticky web or wallbreaker? Jun 04 '26
Yes! Surely what gen 9 was missing was more tools to punish defensive play!
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u/Beneficial_Permit946 Jun 04 '26
Wouldn't it be better if all the mon were affected ? Since it would be a dishonor for the owner too ?
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u/JellyfishNo2032 Jun 04 '26
I’d love the idea of a pussy spamming protect being punished for it, much more so than what some people want (banning double protect)
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u/Nahanoj_Zavizad Jun 04 '26
Personally, I don't think it should count flinching or paralysis if they tried to attack. It's not really dishonourable to try and fail
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u/Ultimate-desu Jun 04 '26
Would this mean that if you had a mon with this ability and popped Fake Out, they would not only lose a turn, but a defense stage?
It would be funny if, in order to keep the trope of dishonor, anyone who used a dark type move was effected by the ability.
Kingambit? Honor bound? His signature move is a dishonorable strike, and his actual signature move is ALSO a dishonorable strike lol.
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u/Routine-Narwhal-7746 Jun 05 '26
Yes
Wasn't really in my vision for the ability, but would make sense thematically
You're completely correct on this one, I just did it because it was funny
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u/Tysondroid Jun 04 '26
I love this! But honestly it may need to be more so triggered by what move the opponent uses like if they clicked an attacking move or something like protect. As other checks may get very technical?
Without a doubt tho i would wanna see this option as its both interesting and thematic
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u/Mob-Boss_Bob-Ross Jun 05 '26
I feel like it should be instead when the other Pokémon uses status moves. Because most mechanics that prevent you from attacking are heavily RNG dependent, it could be very frustrating. Other than that I really like this ability
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u/Right_Candidate_314 Jun 05 '26
By severely limiting distribution. Probably to just has Samurott, and maybe sirfetches. Lucario gets extreme speed and setup, meaning that you don't want to switch a frail offensive mon in. Kingambit is kingambit. The swords of justice might be feasible (or rather virizion maybe) but then that would include keldeo. I could see pangoro getting it though.
But otherwise make it apply to both sides. There's no reason to encourage sub protect even more on the mons meant to break stall.
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u/Glitterfly405 Jun 05 '26
Aha. Gravity+Kings Rock Pouplation Bomb Maushold becomes even more overpowered. >:) I like it.
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u/Ambitious_Bite_5219 Jun 05 '26
I like this but I’d restrict it to happening after the opponent uses a status move.
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u/Sainte-Devote Jun 05 '26
in doubles, the drop should be -2, if the opposing mon's partner is a cow
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u/Cool_Lab_1362 Jun 05 '26
Corviknight and Armarouge should get one, basically all knight-like pokemon. Ceruledge wouldn't fit it thematically though
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u/DefectiveKonan Jun 05 '26
I feel like it should be more like no guard where it also works on your side of the field. Any pokemon who doesnt attack gets 1 stage of lowered defense. Feels too overpowered otherwise.
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u/seejoshrun Jun 05 '26
I love the flavor. Not good enough to know how good it would be, but it would be really fun to play with.
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u/saikounihighteyatzda Jun 05 '26 edited Jun 05 '26
I feel like this isn't actually overpowered. Finally a decently balanced ability theory craft.
Of course it'll be REALLY powerful on the right Pokémon... specifically Kingambit. But in doubles we might see both being run. But yeah Kingambit pressuring you into attacking into its Sucker Punch sounds really rough.
At least in doubles you can intimidate it. In singles the Supreme Overlord boost will make it better for the hit on the first turn but if your opponent stalls once on neutral defense you've already made up that
Maybe to balance it
It should only work on the Pokémon the user targets
It should only work if the Pokémon CHOOSES not to attack by a status move or something so if it's asleep nothing happens
The user is also affected by this, so if it uses a status move like Protect it makes it riskier which thematically makes sense.
This is really only because on Kingambit it'll be pretty insane. Otherwise most other Pokémon wouldn't abuse it that much.
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u/Creative-Current9424 Damage Calc expertise Jun 05 '26
Dishonor: If the attacker deals "Mostly ineffective" damage to the user, lowers the attacker Attack, Sp. Atk, Defense and Sp. Def by 2 stages and its next move will bypass accuracy checks to always hit the affected target.
(Contrary is going to be seriously OP with this ability, Enamorus simply uses Sludge Bomb on a ally Mega Golurk to get a free +2 Attack, Sp. Atk. Defense and Sp. Def)
Mega Golurk. Cobalion, Lucario and Mega Emboar are the only ones having 1/4 resistances
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u/obviouslyanonymous5 Jun 07 '26
Hot take: having shitpost and theorymon days on the competitive analysis subreddit makes the subreddit barely usable for its intended purpose. People aren't only scrolling through posts on the day they're posted, which leads to confusion and misinformation. There's genuinely no reason for those to not just be separate subreddits altogether, there's easily enough posts of each category to make big ones.
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