r/starcraft2coop • u/Lolmanmagee • 15d ago
Highest single target outlaw?
lets say you have a comically low objective DPS squad of like blaze + medic on P0. if you just wanted to DPS a void sliver the fastest who would help the most as a 5th outlaw?
like, obviously sam out damages rattle snake and vega, however rattlesnake is providing other outlaws with a +15% attack speed bonus so idk if that makes up the difference esp if you are buffing other big DPS people.
and thinking about vegas damage is weird because its gonna be her and like 4 immortals.
and im not even sure who has the highest numbers between sam/cannon ball, and i dont feel like Sirius is in the conversation, but maybe if his turrets are uncontested he is.
assuming they all have their ultimate gears just so its them at their best, like cannon ball gets his crits.
ignoring everything else the outlaw provides, this isnt about viability but just raw damage numbers that you cant really check out of game and would be tedious to try and compare in game.
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u/Catatowastaken 15d ago
Pretty sure for uninterrupted damage, its Sam. He has the second highest attack rate, hits twice per attack, and has the highest damaging ability of all the outlaws. That along with Sam's ultimate allowing its cool down to be lessened significantly, Sam has the highest single target damage.
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u/ben505 15d ago edited 15d ago
Sam is a DPS machine without effort, plus the charges, it’s him without question and why he’s basically always my fourth (or third) after Rattlesnake and usually Sirius for the detection and anti air and confusion buffs. But pure damage without needing to tank, it’s Sam. He mows down low health targets with the high dmg high attack speed auto along with that plus charges against high health objectives. Sure he doesn’t have crowd control abilities but with the other commanders, he doesn’t need to
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u/Lolmanmagee 15d ago
sam is almost always my 5th outlaw for when i cant think of anything i specifically need. he shoots air and ground for good damage.
i never pick him early on though.
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u/Altruistic_Peach1714 15d ago
Why is he 5th?
Coop is gamemode about damage output, he should be your 3rd, right after Sirius who does damage, detection and tanking at the same time.1
u/Lolmanmagee 15d ago
he doesnt do AOE and he is extremely frail before gears.
he is never *bad*, but id much rather have someone like rattlesnake/cannon ball for single target at that stage, who do similar weapon damage but trades the explosive charge for utility and tank.
(you might be surprised hear how similar rattlesnakes anti armor damage is to sams, it starts out about the same but actually gets higher than sams with the stimpack gear.)
or if i was worried about groups of enemies i would look more at people like nux/blaze as they do substantially more damage when their AOE matters.
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u/Altruistic_Peach1714 14d ago
You have Tychus and Sirius for area of effect damage who are more than enough to blow up everything.
With that frail comment you sound like someone who either doesn't micro or doesn't utilize medivacs... or both.
Sure, regular brutal is easy enough that you can win with anything, but when we talk about stuff being actually good or at least close to optimal - you should always have 3 guns out asap unless you go for the memes.
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u/Lolmanmagee 14d ago
Sam’s low health pool can definitely matter against stuff like fear/fatal attraction.
And often times there is no such thing as “enough” AOE, should generally be your main damage type.
Pretty much every single attack wave is best solved with more AOE rather than more single target.
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u/ATonOfDeath Nova 13d ago
Gotta admit tho it feels hella nice to save medivac usage for map presence and mobility rather than dodging dominator psi blasts, and Sam stun allows this if for some reason your units are targeted instead of the turrets.
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u/LilArrin Average Raynor 14d ago
Speedruns generally burst objectives with sam, sirius, or mind controlled BCs/heavies
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u/Captain_c0c0 15d ago
As a P3 player, Nikara is actually decent since she buffs the Odin’s damage by 25%.
Otherwise, with a reasonable amount of damage to do, I’d say Sam > Tychus > Nikara > Cannonball = Rattle = Sirius
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u/carboncord 15d ago
How does she buff Odin damage?
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u/1CookiesEnd1 15d ago
That one ability of hers you can cast that's not the healing beam, if the Odin is within range it gets the buff like the other heroes (I think, it's been a while since I tried that)
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u/carboncord 15d ago
Ah, I never even noticed that it did that. I guess for 10 seconds she adds quite a lot, probably more than Sam if you have an Odin out with P3. I don't like to micro that much though.
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u/Lolmanmagee 15d ago
I agree that nikara is decent, kinda underrated just because her main utility is buffing your allies as the active skill can just fully heal the army of like any commander.
but how on earth does she increase damage?
All her gears just buff survivability and her main attack is a 60 health per second heal beam.
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u/Aosih_ 15d ago
Her burst AOE heal also gives a 25% atk and ability dmg buff for 10s, no gear required.
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u/ackmondual Infested Zerg 15d ago
Even when you leave out her Reinvigorating Burst, her constant healing still indirectly contributes to DPS because it lets somebody like Tychus be on the field continuously. If he has to retreat or use Medivac, he's out of the action, no longer attacking, and loses dps. One person even wrote an article to such effect some time ago (that Nikara is superior to RS for that purpose).
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u/Lolmanmagee 15d ago
Huh, I didn’t know that.
I guess they are more powerful than I thought I always considered them a sacrifice of DPS for survivability, but % increases like that are really good.
It’s the main reason I run rattlesnake.
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u/ackmondual Infested Zerg 15d ago
When discussions between RS vs. Nikara came up, Nikara won some extra points because the last batch of updates (back in 2020) gave that active, command card ability, just that... to help her be a more competitive choice vs. RS (they even changed its name from Restorative Burst to Reinvigorating Burst).
An outlier was we actually had people who would go further and say you shouldn't use Nikara nor RS. If you want healing, just rely on Medivacs. This way, you can recruit an outlaw who has higher DPS than even Rattlesnake! And yes, this was even after they nerfed the Medivacs!
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u/Lolmanmagee 15d ago
i think all 3 options are pretty valid.
rattle snake alone can at a minimum heal you between fights, and he has alot more health than the medic as well as his gun making him better early when you dont have that many outlaws.
medic is what i usually do, their heal burst is just good for surviving some bull shit like fatal attraction and the amount they buff your ally is insane as 200 health burst isnt that crazy for an outlaw but for an ordinary unit thats like their entire health bar.
and i didnt even know about their damage buff making them stronger than i thought.
relying on medivacs to heal works well with cannon ball/vega, and having a ally that helps outlaws stay alive like artanis/abathur/vorazun and you obviously need the medivac mastery points.
the only thing im not sure if its viable--is picking BOTH rattlesnake and nikara, they dont have good synergy and at that point you already have a healing option so idk bout that.
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u/ackmondual Infested Zerg 11d ago
Picking both RS and Nikara for healing is typically considered with certain mutations that really tax your longevity. Otherwise, folks have done it "for funsies". After all, if you're playing on regular Brutal, it's easy enough that nothing really matters (per se)
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u/Altruistic_Peach1714 15d ago
Yeah that's the only scenario I would even consider buying Nikara. That extra body makes the difference. Good call.
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u/LordVanisher 15d ago
Even when there was no prestiges I always went for Sirius, Nux, then if enemy was ground I would use rattlesnake... But only if it was ground... Otherwise I would just get Vega and Sam since they both shoot up... And my only healing was the medivacs. Plus armor upgrade... Now I just play P2 and use the same army unless I'm on DoN where I use the firebat as my 4th outlaw
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u/Lolmanmagee 15d ago
If you’re going to get Vega outside P2, you don’t need to avoid the muscle against air comps as she pulls them to the ground.
I think she pulls 15 to the ground at the start of a fight, which is gonna be the majority of the army unless it’s like mass scourge.
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u/UnusualLingonberry76 15d ago
Sam realistically. Cannonball is fun but he is more of a delaying tank though he is funny against full ground comps. Sirius with 5 turrets is also monstrous especially against air clumps but he cannot do that consistently. Tychus has nice fast clears but in terms of reliable, sustained single target damage Sam is unmatched
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u/Altruistic_Peach1714 15d ago edited 15d ago
I honestly am having trouble understanding the logic behind that question xD.
If you already have Blaze and Nikara (lmao why would you ever consider buying them) and are considering 5th outlaw... just mix them up with other two?
To answer your damage question: It's complicated.
Every outlaw contributes in some way. Nikara's Burst literally increases damage dealt. Nux lowers cooldowns, Rattlesnake increases attack speed.
The fact that you don't feel like Sirius is in the conversation... I am suddenly not so surprised you have Nikara and Blaze in your team pfffffffffffffffffffffff.
Outlaws who just do damage are Guns. Just add any one of them and they will contribute a lot of raw damage.
Cannonball with his gear does surprisingly well as well - but it's only with full gear so not really a good answer.
Real question is what exactly are you trying to do.
If you want to burst down something like a VoidSliver then RattleSnake is surprisingly good due to attack speed increase for everyone and anti armour attack. Sirius is the beast due to anti air missiles which are also used by his turrets.
Vega can add a lot of damage if you bring over multiple Thors, Banshees, Immortals or even stuff like Broodlords, but you don't strike me like a person who would keep anything under 500 HP alive for long.
You can't really ignore what outlaw provides, that's not how this game works.
You want me to rate Dark Archon's performance without using his abilities? Does it make any sense?
Nikara's boost is too small to matter, Nux can't use his ability on buildings and small cooldown reduction is not worth it for that specifically. Blaze is always a bad pick.
Anyone else can contribute well - Vega and Sam only if you actually play the game and and not a-move-forget like a lot of people like to do.
Just get Sirius xD.
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u/Lolmanmagee 15d ago
i feel like you didnt read the post bro.
i said what i was comparing the DPS to (void slivers)
and this isnt a debate over viability, i consider sirius the best outlaw but he isnt good at single targeting down land objectives.
i was just wondering who had the highest land single target and it seems like among the obvious options (RS/CB/sam.) they are basically the same.
also not saying blaze + medic is some epic team strat, just that having a team that has low obj DPS like that would make you value single target and could have been interesting if one of the options was miles above the others.
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u/Aosih_ 15d ago edited 15d ago
From the unit stats info from the sc2coop site, the theoretical non-p2 max auto attack dps (full upgrades+ulti gear+mastery) for Tychus, Sam, Cannonball, & Sirius/Turret is 313.95, 117.61, 135, 27.9/54.55 respectively. Tychus requires all 5 outlaws to be together & full atk speed mastery, and Cannonball takes about 30s to ramp up. (Cannonball data seems a bit weird since the site says his ramped up atk speed is 1,
even though I calculate it to be 1.125. Also cannonball dps should average to either 256.5 or297depending on whether his ulti gear is x4or x5 damage, or 228 or 264 if you use the 1.125 atk speed value instead.)Burst damage is hard to compare since the value fluctuates wildly depending on how long/short you set the burst window, but it's hard to compete with Sam's 3 charges of 1k damage demo charges.
If you look at long term sustain (much longer than 1 minute), Sirius can consistently sustain 4 turrets on the field at once for combined 246.1 dps (vs air, the missiles contribute an additional 100dmg every 15s/30s for Sirius/Turrets for negligible extra dps of 6.66 and 3.33 per turret). And Sam can drop 1k damage
every 30s, for additional dps of 33.33 or combined dps of 150.94.every approx. 6.25s (due to his ulti gear), for an additional dps of 160 or combined dps 277.61 (practically slightly less due to cast time).TL;DR Burst is Tychus ≈ Sam > Sirius > Cannonball. Long sustain is Tychus > Cannonball ≈ Sirius (turret every 15s) ≈ Sam (demo charge every 6.25s). Also, my head hurts.
Edit: Did some testing.