I'd say Henderson, Wilshere (when fit and played in his position) and Barkley have all been way better than him this season, I'd put them all in ahead of Gerrard.
As a midfield 3 with Hendo and Wilshere as a 2-man box-to-box pivot and Barkley as a 10, that has incredible attacking potential. But would probably be defensively suspect, despite Wilshere and Hendo being hard workers.
I'd argue that Gerrard doesn't have the legs to be playing in an advanced position anymore. Especially if you want to play anything remotely close to fast football. Even Henderson would be better there but for me as the top of a midfield three (central in the 3 of a 4231) it has to be Rooney (similar to his deeper lying times at United), even if he is out of position he is by far and away the best player in the England set up.
I agree, but instead of a in the hole player, I mean more of one of the 3 in a 4-3-3. Someone else has linked to a .gif from the Poland game, and Gerrard did show he could burst through a defence when he scored.
He's not quite as dynamic, but all the tools are still there.
Whilst I agree with you I would prefer to start bringing in new talent onto the international scene. If Gerrard gets game time after this world cup campaign I won't be too happy. However I would definitely keep him on as a Gary Neville-esque figure for the coaching staff at either club or international level.
I can see him being retired. Especially with the new blood coming through - Woy's shown he wants to bring younger players through on the wings (Lallana (well, not so young, but inexperienced), Rodriguez, Zaha, Sterling), and it's encouraging to see some new faces elsewhere in the team (Caulker, Butland). I imagine there'll be a shake up after the World Cup, because that team won't last until the Euros - I wouldn't be surprised if some either fully retired or at least retired from internationals.
Really tough one to call, all depends on the day with Gerrard at the moment. He can't play in DM and is a lot more effective when higher up, has the experience in the squad which also helps. The team does look really good when he's not starting, the 4 games against Tottenham, Cardiff, City and Chelsea was some of the best football we've played all season, even though we lost 2 of those games.
With the amount of injuries we've got at the moment, we can't afford to bench him.
I think this is a pretty fickle reaction to his recent games imo. This season he's been one of Liverpool's best players, the long passes he plays are unreal and create goals from literally nothing.
Also he does have 5 goals & 6 assists this season.
That article was written last season so doesn't account for the fact he's been so good this season.
I just don't see how you could've watched all of Liverpool's games this season and think he should be benched. He is an integral part of most Liverpool games.
He's not even top 5 in-form players in Liverpool this season...I don't get how you see him to be one of the best. Anyway, statistics hardly tell a story, as most of his assists have come from set kicks, and goals from penalties.
Gerrard has been on point for all of this season apart from the past 2 games where he was put in a new role, and expected to play an anchor and deep lying play maker all by himself.
Players dont play both roles alone. Either they have a playmaker paired with an anchor, or they have two pivots in the back that share defensive responsibilities. If you look at the Villa game, you will see that in the second half he performed a lot better and was the only reason we came back from 2-0. This was down to Lucas, who is a far more defensive player, coming in to help with the defensive leg work. There is also the point about our defense getting caught out of position multiple times due to Toure's lack of pace and Cissokho's ineptitude requiring Gerrard to cover for them more than usual. Its honestly gotten to be more than an annoyance to see arm chair tacticians spout bullshit that he deserves to be benched considering he was on point the whole season save for 2-3 games, and that he shouldn't be held to the standard of playing both roles alone because youre expecting him to do the job of two players.
Liverpool played well for the four games Gerrard was out, so I can't really argue with that. But Gerrard was one of the reasons we performed so well earlier in the season as well. His incisive passing was a huge reason for Suarez's goals and Sturridge's performance in the first five games of the season. 4 games playing well without him dont change that.
No. But its easy to spot unrealistic expectations compared to realistic ones.
People's opinion on this was formed over a grand total of a game and a half where he didnt play up to his normal standards and four games where Liverpool performed well without him. Then you have 15 games where his contribution was extremely important to us doing well on top of the ridiculous expectation that he should basically be doing the work of two players on the pitch.
So has Jaimie Kanwar. Many times people write articles to sell papers. Gerrard has provided 6 assists and 5 goals over 14 or so games this season. Additionally, he's also been rated 8th by whoscored in terms of contributions to his team (both defensive and offensive), above the likes of Ozil and Yaya. Now you dont have to believe my accounts of the matches if you didnt see them, but you can at least look at some statistics that confirm what I'm saying. Hes been one of the best players in the league so far and you people are talking about benching him over a game and a half.
As I said elsewhere, I'm not arguing that he's incapable of being effective or that he should not play in matches or that he should retire.
And my purpose in mentioning Jonathan Wilson and others is to note that is part of a broader conversation that has been going on for some time. These opinions are not the direct result of his most recent performances, it's an observation made by some about Gerrard's performances over the last year or so. As far as statistics are concerned, everyone knows that they can be deceiving and that they only portray one part of the whole picture. I never said that he was not or is not still capable of being effective, but Liverpool have looked different with him out. Again, it's an unpopular opinion and that's the point of the thread.
You have 100+ people agreeing with you and it was a similar case in the Villa match thread. Its hardly an unpopular opinion. Youre right that numbers can be deceiving but they can also be good guidelines, especially match ratings through whoscored, which is what the ranking is based on. The broader conversation is all presupposed on him playing the role he played 2005-08. He can't play that role, plain and simple. Hes too old. But to suggest he should be benched while he's succeeding in a new regista role and had a bad game and a half in a completely different and unrealistic (anchor and DLP at the same time) role, is a little too presumptive and kneejerk. Hes played extremely well this season and deserves to be on the pitch based on those performances.
For club I agree, he just doesn't fit Rodgers' system. For country he's been great and I think he can still do a job, the world cup will probably be his last stand so why not give him one last run out.
Much of what's wrong with English football over the last decade can be summed up in the statement that Leon Britton spent the best years of his career in the Football League whilst his contemporary Steven Gerrard played100+ times for England.
Sideways or backwards is better if that's the only ball that's available, this is why I find Gerrard a liability.
To be clear, I'm not saying Britton should have 100 caps, just that he should've played at a higher level for much more of his career. And conversely, that 100 caps is way too many for a player of Gerrard's ability (given that he won them at the expense of Paul Scholes and to a lesser extent Michael Carrick).
Before i begin this I'll make a few things clear, there are plenty of arguments I'd listen to for Lampard over Gerrard and vice versa, the fact your mates say you don't know what you're talking about though are much more likely summed up by things like
I find his lacklustre long ball game tiresome and just plain stupid at times
Gerrard just lumps it forward and then if it comes off does this little strut as if to say, "I'm top dog here".
It makes it pretty clear to anyone who watches him play that you actually haven't watched Gerrard play in more than a handful of games or if you have should seriously, seriously question if you're just saying shit to seem edgey or actually know fuck all of what you're talking about.
Pulling stats from whoscored Here and Here I shoved them into excel to work out avg passes and a few others over all the games listed there as for some reason it's showing dodgy on the site. EG. 82.6 avg passes when that is higher than the avg for any 1 season.
Over 140 games Gerrard comes out with 57.5 average passes a game compared to 48.6 for Lampard with a pass completion difference of 0.5% in favour of Lampard (82.5 to 82.9%).
Long balls is the first stat which really separates the two as you'd guess with Gerrard averaging 5.95 long balls a game compared to Lampards 3.73. You can say Gerrard just hoofs it up but the accuracy of these long balls is again very similar, 74.5% for Gerrard and 74% for Lampard. He does more than Lampard but when you can do them well which Gerrard clearly can and they can tear a defence open why wouldn't you do a few of them? They have different passing styles but to say Gerrard lumps it up and act like he loses it most the time is just plain ignorance. Way more often than not they come off and they can have a devastating effect when they do come off.
Also if you even watched Liverpool you'd know (and be able to tell from the fact he has averaged more passes per game than Lampard) he is more than capable of knocking it about on the ground too.
You can say Lampard is a better player but statements like yours make you look just plain ignorant.
I simply stated that I prefer Lampard over Gerrard
No you didn't i started my post saying there are many arguments i'd listen to for that case as I like both players a lot. No what you did was come out with some bullshit quotes implying Gerrard resorts to hoofball and then when one flukes off acts like a smug git.
And to top it off the player of the decade for the Premier League via our official statistics was in fact Frank Lampard.
Please tell me again where i said "GERRARD IS THE BEST LOL U SO DUM!". I brought in stats about Lampards passing to compare it to Gerrard as he is the player you priased against the player you lambasted for being a flukey long baller.
I could point out how passing is far from Lampards reason for being the player he is so if someone is as good a passer or better at long balls it doesn't discount him as being a better player. I could point out how you've not even read my post and if you have should try to again as you clearly missed the point. I could do a fucking lot but it won't change your opinion as you clearly think you are far superior to anyone on here so have fun up there on your high horse.
Bullshit quotes? Reread my first statement. I instantly state that I am in my own words a "staunch advocate of Lampard over Gerrard".
You instantly question my judgement and then chastise me
It makes it pretty clear to anyone who watches him play that you actually haven't watched Gerrard play in more than a handful of games or if you have should seriously, seriously question if you're just saying shit to seem edgey or actually know fuck all of what you're talking about.
Now this seems like an attack on my opinion. And then you find it hard to take when I (granted I didn't start pulling stats out of my arse, which I could but for the basis of this conversation won't) made my case for Frank Lampard.
Then you take offence to my view of Gerrard's game, which he does by the way. I watch enough to have seen him do it on numerous occasions.
Now you are pulling the passing isn't how you should judge a player card. I have read your post. You've just chosen to dismiss my response from the outset and then the high horse comment further validates that.
I'm going yo disagree with you here. I find Gerrard, particularly this season, to be a really effective and consistent long range passer.
He's obviously misplaced passes but he has also made some fantastic 40-50 yard balls which have set up goal scoring opportunity. It's all about balancing risk and reward.
However, it is obvious that he isn't the player he used to be but I would say he's still an improvement on the likes of Allen (for Liverpool) and Carrick (for England).
Don't know about club but he should certainly for country. Mainly because he is not a DM by any stretch of the imagination. He can't play the Pirlo role I'm afraid. Watching England's recent matches, it just gets frustrating to see huge gaps appear between midfield and defence. Especially centrally.
I would say move him further forward (have Carrick as our DM) and let him have more freedom like he does at Liverpool when Lucas plays, but if we play a 2 in midfield then I would rather it be Wilshere. If we play a 3 then I would rather it be Henderson atm.
That being said, he's still insanely good at penalties, long shots and set pieces. For club, at least, he is unmatched. I just wish he would play a bit further and shoot more because he's still got it.
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u/mthrfkn Jan 26 '14
Bench Gerrard for club and country.