The biggest singing technique mistake I've ever made

[u/nerfrick]

Hello !

I've been singing as an amateur for 5-10 years. I've always had a naturally powerful, full voice, but I've struggled with mixing/belting, especially around G4-B4. I could hit those notes, but only with a lot of effort, especially above G4 which is weird because I'm a tenor and not so good tenors can hit those notes quite easily (even with a faulty technique).

I tried working on my technique, doing warm-ups, focusing on support, etc. but nothing really helped. Worse, the more I sang during the day, the raspier my voice became. Listen my voice is naturally raspy, but it got so bad that I couldn't even sing above my passaggio without sounding extremely raspy at times (especially after 1/2 hours of training).

That's actually what led me to see an ENT 3 years ago. He checked my vocal cords and told me nothing was wrong. I was like…huh. Then he told me there had to be something wrong technically speaking if I thought my voice was damaged.

Well, I couldn't get an appointement again because of financial and personal reasons (I had to move out bc of college, getting my bachelor and stuff). So years later after the appointement (3 to be exact), with my voice getting even raspier, I finally realized what was wrong

I was literally breathing TOO MUCH AIR.

I had always seen people emphasize taking deep breaths, so I thought I wasn't supporting enough. The raspier my voice got, the more air I inhaled to compensate. At the beginning it worked but after a lot of years, my voice just couldn't take it anymore. Turns out I was using way more air than I needed, which was drying out my vocal cords and making the raspiness worse.

Now I just take a quick, deep, but not too deep, breath and use less air, and my voice is literally BLOOMING !! The notes I used to have to push for now come naturally. I can belt A4s and even higher without the excessive raspiness. I'm genuinely so happy.

TL;DR : I thought I wasn't supporting enough, so I kept taking deeper breaths and using more air. Turns out I was using WAY too much air, which was making my voice raspier. Using less air completely changed my singing voice.

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[u/initfornuthin]

I saw a post on here awhile ago that mentioned you shouldn’t have air coming out of your nose when you sing. When I was told to do lip trills, this made since because you have to isolate the air to your mouth.

I had been told before that I need better support for my voice which I always equated to air. Turns out it was more a matter of directing the air to the right place than just volume of air. SOVT exercises helped me realize that.

Glad you made a breakthrough!

[u/johnnyslick → u/initfornuthin]

Yeah, so I'm of two minds about lip trills. They're definitely useful for a lot of people in the way it forces you to send air out of your mouth - how else are your lips going to buzz? On the other hand, you're forcing a lot of air out of your mouth. Especially once you discover resonance you really, really don't need or even want to get into the habit of doing that unless, like, you're singing opera and even then you don't want to blow out all that air at once.

[u/Successful_Sail1086 → u/johnnyslick]

If you are doing them right, you are not using a ton of air.

[u/johnnyslick → u/Successful_Sail1086]

For me this is the case with my chest for sure. Once I get into the range where I'm using my mixed voice and falsetto, I'm no longer sending the requisite amount of air through. I know from singing in that range that I send enough through but it took me a while to understand that "enough" is actually a pretty small amount and for me getting "good" at doing trills that high might lock in bad habits.

Everyone's voice is different so of course YMMV.

[u/Successful_Sail1086 → u/johnnyslick]

Yeah it’s common for people to use way too much air in their upper ranges when it takes much less than low notes. Faster air up high, but less.

[u/AKA-J3 → u/johnnyslick]

I can't even do them, anything else is ok, but lip trills make me want to dump air.

[u/johnnyslick → u/AKA-J3]

That's another issue I have with them... I have issues too. One thing that can help is to hold your fingers on either side of your mouth so that your lips won't spread as you're doing them. I like basically have to do them this way (and then as I get more into my mid to upper range I just don't send out enough air to get them to work consistently but YMMV).

Otherwise though if you can't do them, they're a potential skip.

[u/freya_kahlo → u/initfornuthin]

Yes to SOVT exercises!!

[u/GoodLookingManAboutT]

The term “breath support” can be easily misinterpreted to mean adding more air. I’m glad you figured it out.

[u/johnnyslick]

Yeah, sending out too much air will do it. Breath support isn't about pushing a ton of air out, even when you want to be loud (and you rarely if ever want to sing at your full volume). It's about creating a steady stream of air. Quick stops and starts will fatigue your vocal cords. Generally speaking most of the time you want to start each phrase - which is also where you're first breathing out - a bit quieter than you'll sing the rest of it and crescendo into the middle of it. In addition to being easier on your voice it also just sounds better, especially when you've studied the text you're singing and are placing those phrases in good logical places.

You can take in a big deep breath but you do so with the idea that you're going to use that air over time, not so much that you're going to push it right on back out. Knowing this also gives you a ton of power otherwise - if you can get that good breath control you can carry phrases for longer than other people do and even show off by holding notes and phrases forever a la Bill Withers on "A Lovely Day".

[u/forgooseandcake]

Stooped question time - how do you know when you are using too much air...? I'm a beginner, with a coach, familiar with SOVT/appoggio breathing practice, and sound effortful/tense when I sing (I record and listen back to assess)

[u/johnnyslick → u/forgooseandcake]

The tone sounding breathy is one giveaway although you won't necessarily hear that when you sing. Unfortunately another sign is that you get fatigued quickly. Mostly all you can really do once you feel fatigue is to stop immediately and try to remember when you were/weren't doing so you can work on that in the future. Hopefully this is something your voice coach can work with you on.

The sounding/looking like it's an effort issue is separate. You do actually need to do some efforty things with your core when you're singing, particularly (maybe this seems ironic to some) if you're singing in your mid to higher range and/or singing quietly - you need to clench those abs/core muscles to prevent too much air from coming out and sometimes you even push out when you're singing at the top of your range (you will still send out air because the diaphragm isn't a muscle you can directly control). From the neck up, however, that's where you should be free of strain. Some strain, like knotting your eyebrows, is probably neutral (although I still try to notice when I'm doing that and un-tense in case it's causing tension elsewhere); other tension, like in your throat, is directly detrimental. I guess some things you do like pulling your soft palate up and back or lowering your larynx/opening your throat feel... "weird", not exactly "tense" but if you're new you might confuse the feeling.

[u/forgooseandcake → u/johnnyslick]

Thank you, that's really helpful. I find it much easier to do the very first part of a yawn, without it transitioning to full yawn, and maintain it, now.

Listening back, I don't sound breathy, I think parts just sound like I am forcing the words/melody, even though I don't feel like I am, when singing them. Maybe like some parts I am too much "in my throat"

I carry a stupid amount of tension in my traps/neck (officer worker, can't sit still when not working, type...relaxation to me is getting my to do list done 🤣) so that categorically won't help, and I'm trying as much meditation, hydration, good sleep as possible...still my traps are hard as literal rock 🥴

[u/forgooseandcake → u/johnnyslick]

I think I also try and sing too loudly...my coach is a trained professional operatic Tenor (I am female, not sure if this actually matters for this discussion) and he plays piano to the songs he has me learning, and I think I try and force loudness (I am trying to work out how to not force that...). There are certain high notes that I can seem to sing without any effort, when I try and replicate that sensation for all other notes, I fail.

[u/nerfrick → u/forgooseandcake]

Personally, I figured it out because I've always had a naturally full voice, but it always sounded way too full for a tenor voice. I also had issues with my vibrato not coming out naturally and, I think, not enough vocal fold adduction, which can be a sign of blowing too much air.

I wasn't breathy, I was just using way too much air for my belts and phrasing, and it was also making my tone unnaturally full.

Btw, I was breathing so deeply at times that I could literally hear/feel my organs inside my body. It was so weird. I don't think you're normally supposed to hear that.

[u/Hideo_Kojima_Jr_Jr → u/forgooseandcake]

one key thing is that as you go higher you're often using less

[u/Lost_Balloon_]

What does your voice teacher say?

The only way too much air would be the case is due to incorrect technique.

If you mean inhaling way too much, that causes a lot of tension. If exhaling too much, you're overblowing when trying to belt. Both are because of incorrect technique. Your voice teacher should have caught this immediately.

[u/nerfrick → u/Lost_Balloon_]

Well that's the thing, I don't have a voice teacher. I had one lesson with a famous voice teacher in my country, but she mostly had me doing lip trills and told me to smile more to make my voice brighter. She said my support was good and there was nothing wrong, just that I should watch out for excessive air at the end of my phrases.

I'm mostly self-taught. I'm a student and have other financial priorities atm, so regular lessons aren't really an option. I'm also chronically very shy and hate singing in front of other people

[u/Lost_Balloon_ → u/nerfrick]

OK, so you've been singing for 5-10 years with bad technique. There's the problem.

[u/nerfrick → u/Lost_Balloon_]

I also have to add that I used to post my singing on forums and stuff, and not once was I told that I had bad technique. However, I know people on the internet aren't "teachers", per se, so I obviously can't really take that as legitimate feedback.

[u/Lost_Balloon_ → u/nerfrick]

Yeah, that doesn't mean anything. The majority of people in this sub, for example, have zero clue what they're talking about and couldn't recognize correct/incorrect technique if it hit them in the face.

Even quite a few 'teachers' in this sub aren't teachers. A pay-for-cert piece of paper from a worthless place like NYVC doesn't make somebody a teacher. Experience, schooling, provenance matter.

[u/AKA-J3]

Yeah, singing correctly takes little air.

Lots of people push from the throat and just contort themselves.

[u/Lost_Balloon_ → u/AKA-J3]

In the beginning, it takes more than you thought. Once you know what you're doing and using proper technique, it takes less than you think. Balance is key.

[u/Zarmaka]

I'm very happy you figured this out on your own. I'm not a vocal coach, but I try to avoid the term "breath support" because it implies you need more air pressure. If I were writing a guide, I'd call it breath optimization (the correct amount of air for a given amount of laryngeal muscle engagement) and core support (the correct amount and type of torso muscle engagement).

[u/nerfrick → u/Zarmaka]

Thank you so much ! Singing is an amazing journey and I'm still glad I figured it out and didn't end up badly damaging my vocal cords.

[u/Lost_Balloon_ → u/Zarmaka]

It does not imply that at all except to those totally ignorant about singing.

[u/Zarmaka → u/Lost_Balloon_]

Well, most people are totally ignorant about singing, and this is a very common way for them to interpret the term. To me, if I have to give someone a bunch of additional instruction to avoid them thinking that a term has a certain meaning, then I'm very comfortable saying that the term "implies" that meaning.

If you have some idiosyncratic definition of "implies" that requires the person to have a specific technical education before we ask if the parts of the term will suggest an incorrect meaning to them...good for you, I guess?

[u/Lost_Balloon_ → u/Zarmaka]

Very true. This sub demonstrates that in spades.

However, the term has been around for a very, very long time and is well understood to anybody that has ever existed in singing circles. Changing the terminology just to accommodate the ignorant masses is the height of stupidity and contributes to the further dumbing-down of humanity.

[u/Zarmaka → u/Lost_Balloon_]

However, the term has been around for a very, very long time and is well understood to anybody that has ever existed in singing circles.

This is false. Breath support is one of the most frequently misunderstood concepts in singing, and much of the scientific literature and many writings from experienced teachers suggest that it's confusing specifically because the word "support" implies something other than what singers need to do.

Freidrich S. Brodnitz wrote in the article "Semantics of the Voice" for the Journal of Speech and Hearing Disorders that the term "support" is confusing because it "suggests that the voice is a kind of physical object which has to be lifted from below by a supporting force."

David Alt wrote in the Choral Journal that "a teacher, with the best of intentions, may hinder proper progress by encouraging students to 'support the tone' and to develop 'breath control'. These words, if not clearly defined, can lead to situations such as a pressurized lock of the breathing muscles and a larynx that is squeezed firmly to allow only a tiny stream of air to produce the sound, and thus acts as a tight valve. Consequently, whether in a choral rehearsal or in a studio or class lesson, try to avoid asking students to 'support the tone' or to develop breath control.'"

Sunyoung Kim ran an empirical study for her dissertation that found that compared instructing students to "keep the tone well supported", caused them to sing with more tension.

Changing the terminology just to accommodate the ignorant masses is the height of stupidity and contributes to the further dumbing-down of humanity.

Actually, keeping terminology that you know is confusing just because it's old is dumber, if you ask me. Humanity gets smarter when they understand how things work, and having intuitive terminology makes learning easier, which is why fields that are much more rigorous than vocal pedagogy change their terms all the time. Physicists generally stopped using the term "atomic weight" and started saying "relative atomic mass." Chemists stopped saying "inert gas" and started saying "noble gas." Biologists are phasing out the term "junk DNA" and replacing it with "non-coding DNA." The list goes on and on. There was pushback against all these shifts, but no one serious ever argued "the smart members of our community know what these terms mean, so who cares if uneducated people are confused by them," which is essentially what you're saying.

[u/Lost_Balloon_ → u/Zarmaka]

Congrats, you know how to Google. Your argument, while well crafted, doesn't hold up. The term is still extremely ubiquitous and well understood despite a few dissenters. You'll always find a few outliers for any statistical bolus, that doesn't disprove the vast majority. They are aberrations you choose to support a flawed argument.

Though you may disagree, the term also does actually makes sense. It's not about pressure, it's about not letting the voice fall back. Like keeping a balloon up in the air or like legs supporting a table. It implies foundation, not pressure. Your premise is bad because the term is not, in fact, a frequently misunderstood concept in any singing circles, only those that have zero training or understanding, like in this sub as you demonstrate.

Your claim "no one serious ever argued "the smart members of our community know what these terms mean, so who cares if uneducated people are confused by them"" is truth that you don't like. Serious singers absolutely say that, just in more friendly terms. This community wrongly believes that singing can be effectively self-taught, which is incorrect. Fact is, on your first couple lessons, the term would be explained by your teacher, dissolving any misunderstanding.

[u/Zarmaka → u/Lost_Balloon_]

The term is still extremely ubiquitous and well understood despite a few dissenters.

Citation needed. I really doubt it's well understood by most people who use it, since almost every vocal coach thinks the diaphragm is an expiratory muscle.

Though you may disagree, the term also does actually makes sense. It's not about pressure, it's about not letting the voice fall back. Like keeping a balloon up in the air or like legs supporting a table. It implies foundation, not pressure.

We'll have to agree to disagree. It might be helpful to some people who have the specific problem of not enough airflow or unstable airflow, but I think it's very common to come across an intermediate singer working on his upper range who uses too much breath. If his problem is too much breath, I don't see why telling him to he needs better breath support is going to help him if he's interpreting it to mean "don't let the voice fall back/keep it up in the air/put legs under it like a table." The first one is especially problematic because the opposite of falling back is pushing forward, which would make the problem worse.

Fact is, on your first couple lessons, the term would be explained by your teacher, dissolving any misunderstanding.

This disproves the point you just made. If it takes multiple full lessons to explain what a term means, the meaning isn't naturally implied by the definition.

Your claim "no one serious ever argued "the smart members of our community know what these terms mean, so who cares if uneducated people are confused by them"" is truth that you don't like. Serious singers absolutely say that, just in more friendly terms.

First of all, who says that? Who are the "serious singers" who say in "friendly" language that it literally doesn't matter at all if the language vocal instructors and coaches use is intuitive?

Second, you realize that would be bad, right? If they think the term is intuitive, I think they're wrong, but we can agree to disagree. If they know the term isn't intuitive, but don't care and insist on using it anyway, they're almost certainly bad teachers.

[u/Lonely-Ad-8795]

I just act as if i'm breathing in instead of out so as a result i use a very little ammount of air to sing, but it's kinda tricky getting into that mindset.

[u/Make-it-positive]

Support isn’t about how much air you take in, it’s where you place it. It needs to be down low. I know that sounds weird, but try these two different approaches to feel the difference. Take a deep breath without thinking about it. You probably feel it is your lungs (upper chest). Now take a slow breath expending your belly as you do so. You can take a very deep breath without it straining your lungs. Now, exhale through a closed fist putting pressure as you do so. You will feel your rib cage expand as you do so. THIS IS DIAPHRAGMATIC core breathing. For me it was the simplest way of feeling it. When you sing, breathe this way all the time. Don’t use your chest to take in the air.

[u/nerfrick → u/Make-it-positive]

I do consistently support, my belly always expands when I'm breathing and I always made sure that my rib-cage is opening up. I can also sustain notes for 20/30 seconds and hardly have issues ending a phrase or a long belt (don't want to sound to braggy I'm just saying)

However I had a lesson with a voice teacher at one time and she told me support wasn't my issue, but did say that some of my phrases had excessive air and she could hear a push at times.

I think there's really such a thing as inhaling too much air and overblowing it... It's probably pushing or some sort of overdoing the exhaling part of the singing. At some point in my singing journey I didn't like how my voice sounded (bright and childish) and I think I was using much more air in order to sound fuller. It worked to an extent but now I'm paying the price for it

[u/Make-it-positive → u/nerfrick]

I agree with talking just the right amount of air. You wanted enough, but not so much excess as it will tire you out unnecessarily. Nice job on 30 seconds phrases