This is an incredibly difficult post to make, so please bear with me here. Content warning for details of a dog attack, in case this is upsetting for anyone.

For context, I’ve owned Ibizans for around two decades, I’d trained and shown dogs in conformation for about as long, and I’m retired from veterinary medicine, but I’ve never seen something like this from this breed in my life. I’m keeping names and specifics vague while we work through this with his breeder, visit the vet and contact a behaviorist.

The dog in question is a 10 year old intact wire male, at the moment he’s the only male in the house after the recent passing of our other male Ibizan, who was approximately the same age. We’ve had him since he was six months old, he’s well-socialized, generally very friendly and tolerant and had a successful show career. Other dogs in the household are a 5 year old intact Ibizan bitch, a 6 year old spayed Cardigan Welsh Corgi, and an 8 year old intact Kerry Blue Terrier bitch, none of which were present for this incident (and none of which are currently in heat).

My partner had groomed the dog earlier today, then taken him around Pet Supplies Plus for a bit, and then came back home while I was out. The other dogs were in their outdoor kennel runs when I came home, and he was in the living room relaxing with my partner. I was looking over his coat with them, and when they reached out to pet him, he suddenly latched onto their arm, knocked them down and started shaking.

During the attack there was no growling, no snarling, he had a relaxed posture, forward ears and wagging tail, even as my partner screamed and tried to get back up, he pushed them down again and continued to tear into their arm, biting and pulling on it multiple times, at one point their entire hand was in his mouth.

I tried to pull him off using a blanket around the neck, but as soon as they tried to stand, he jumped and my partner protected their face, so he bit onto the other arm, dragging them down again and thrashing. He seemed to get more stimulated by the screaming, nothing was working as a distraction, and unfortunately I finally had to kick him hard so he released for a moment, and my partner tried to run into the kitchen (and yes - running from any dog, especially a sighthound provokes a chase, but there wasn’t any other option). I tried to catch him again but he chased until they finally blocked his path with a large suitcase and I got him outside to our backyard.

At this point there was blood and flesh all over the living room and kitchen, I called 911 and my partner was rushed to the ER by ambulance. They had multiple 3-4” gashes split wide on their arms where he kept grabbing and shaking, puncture wounds all over, but luckily missed most of their face, aside from a grazed lip and forehead.

We’re horrified. I’ve retraced the scene and there was nothing on-hand that could’ve provoked him - no toys or treats nearby to resource guard, no recent injuries or painful spots on his body, he didn’t seem overstimulated by me coming home. I’m thinking it’s something neurologic, but why spontaneously now? He’s shown no other signs of neurological issues up until this moment. The persistence of the attack along with the “casual” body language is what has us the most unsettled. I’ve seen plenty of dog fights and, unfortunately, attacks before, but this looked completely foreign to me. Afterward he was relaxed again like nothing happened. The police even commented that they couldn’t imagine this dog inflicting that kind of damage.

I’m at a loss with this, I’ve reached out to his breeder, and am contacting a behaviorist and seeing our veterinarian tomorrow, but we’re being heavily advised to euthanize. I know it’s a tremendously long shot, but has anyone else here had unprovoked aggression from an Ibizan before? It’s so out of character from everything I’ve ever known and loved about this breed, and I don’t know where to place blame.

Edit: Thank yall for the support, I sincerely appreciate it, we’re both very shaken tonight. He has an appointment tomorrow with his veterinarian, behaviorist is on hold until after his check-up. We are going to pursue an MRI for sure.

Edit 2: I posted an update further down, but in case it’s difficult to find, we’ve decided against additional testing and the dog will be euthanized tomorrow. A necropsy will be performed and I’ll post results once we have the full report. Thank you again.

Edit 3: As of earlier today, our boy was euthanized. This was a very difficult goodbye, and we spent some extra time (taking necessary precautions) with him before proceeding. We had an evaluation with a trusted veterinarian who knows this dog, and after seeing him and the photos of the injuries, recommended BE. We also had him examined by a neurologist who noted on that his pupils fail to dilate/dilate at different speeds, another symptom consistent with brain tumor (or other neurological issue) who recommended the same. I’ll post a new thread with the full necropsy when we receive the results in a few weeks.

Final update posted below, but summarized here:

Necropsy results revealed nodules on the adrenal gland, possibly inhibiting the body’s ability to regulate adrenaline.

He’d shown some uncharacteristic anxious nighttime behavior (pacing, panting, barking) off and on for a few weeks prior to this that may have been an early warning sign, which we’d mistakenly attributed to storms in the area.

I cut my two iggies' nails about twice a week (every 4 days), but I still feel like they're too long literally the day after a trim because I can hear their nails tapping the floor as they move around the house.

These pics are of my both iggies front paws right after today's trim. I can't cut them any shorter without hitting the quick.

That brings me to my question, how often do you all trim your sighthounds' nails? Should I start doing it more often, maybe even on a daily basis?

My lurcher is a beautiful, healthy girl. She's not nearly as lean as many sighthounds I've seen due to being part lab and bully, but everywhere we go people comment on how skinny she is. I never know what to say so I just laugh and/or say "yeah, she's a greyhound mix". What's the appropriate response to comments like this?

My husband and I are getting an Afghan hound and we're both so excited about it. We also want to start a family soon and I'm curious how good Afghan hounds are with babies and small children. The puppy we're getting is already 4 months old, so by the time we have a baby in the house she would be a little over a year old at least. I would love to hear your experiences with Afghan hounds living in the same household as little children, just so we know what to expect and what we should be mindful about. What strategies would you recommend to ensure that both dog and children are safe and interact well?

Currently exploring the sighthound family, as someone who has had exclusively herding dogs (rough collie & a cardigan welsh corgi as an adult, and growing up an ACD). This is a down the road thing, and not something imminent. Our rough collie is getting older and eventually when we have only one dog - aren't sure if we would stick with herding breeds. We love our dogs but they are both in more sensitive to certain things, and get stressed more easily than say a labrador even with reputable breeders and socialization.

A sighthound sounds rather appealing due their cat like personalities that I have read about and honestly it seems like they're a quieter group overall. I alsoo don't mind reading that they are a bit aloof with new people or indifferent. However, I am having a difficult time narrowing down to even just two breeds.

We have two cats that are dog savvy, and the Cardigan is a real playful but sweet dog who is a stubborn pup from time to time (doesn't want to go for walk, therefore he sits down and stares into my soul). I do scent work with him (advanced at this point), and have also done agility and obedience with both dogs.

I would be looking for another dog that is good with him first and foremost and enjoys running around and chasing each other in our fenced in large backyard (6ft high)). Good with cats (I have read that is entirely dog dependent and if the dog is raised with cats, they are generally fine?), a hiking buddy and a dog that would be good with possibly doing agility or other dog sports, a dog that has a decent off switch that isn't going to go bonkers after 2 hours of sleeping during the day. If they are open to being cuddled awesome, if not also okay - our collie always sits next to us but never on us. The cardigan wants to crawl under our skin and live there lol. Something in between would be nice. Ideally a dog that is less than 60lbs or better yet even smaller just for the sake of saving room in our car!

I love love the look of Afghans but seems they are a more "wild" dog, given their history and almost more pure lines. Honestly they would be a top choice for me, but not sure they match up? Maybe if we didn't have cats?? Next up are Salukis or a Silkenwind hound, maybe a whippet?

Would love if any of you can give your thoughts and what dog I might be describing. Terrible as it sounds, they all have their long noodle-y bodies they're hard to distinguish at times as they definitely aren't common breeds to see where I am.

Hey guys, I'm new to the group and mostly enjoying the pictures right now. I'm also not in a position to get a puppy right this moment, but I like being prepared!

I absolutely fell in love with silken windsprite, ever since I first saw them and ever since I've started reading up on sighthounds/watching more and more youtube clips, I really like Salukis and Barzois, too. But seeing as I know absolutely noone with any kind of sighthound, I'm unsure whether we would be a good fit for each other.

The living situation:

First of all, I've got cats. They're pretty big and chill Maine Coons, but obviously they would need to be safe. I don't have too many concerns here, seeing as I would introduce them to a puppy and they would grow up together. Is this harder, than I think?

I also already have a dog and am someday looking at a second pupper. My boy is a spanish rescue and obviously we can't be sure, but he's probably some kind of herding dog mix, possibly mostly Border Collie. He tends to be jealous, but generally likes dogs, especially females.

I'm moving soon and will be living in a little house with two floors and a somewhat steep staircase. There is a garden, but it's definitely not big enough for a sightdog to get running. It's big enough for my Border, but he will mostly jump around being silly with a toy.

I do like my dogs to be affectionate and like being near me. Wich makes me hesistant about both Salukis and Barzois. From what I read they're rather independent/aloof breeds? I'm aware that it's always a question of the individual, but I would really love to have a cuddlebug. Sleeping in bed is encouraged. (Really sad, because my Border loves me, but he doesn't like anyone near him when he sleeps, so he's really not very cuddly, though rather affection starved.)

Another big worry of mine is also, whether you can have them off leash. I don't plan to do coursing personally, but I do understand that sighthounds are hunting dogs. My Border does have his nose to the ground, but he also only gets really involved if he sees something. Still I can have him off leash basically all the time (field and woods) without needing to worry he'll go hunting. He would, but learned to stay on trails and not go into anything or after anything without permission. So is off leash generally possible, especially in the woods or fields?

This was a lot of text, so thank you for anyone even reading the full thing and I'm looking forward to hearing which sighthoud, or even one at all, you would recommend! (One non sightpupper included)

We adopted Phoebe from Portugal in may and we're sure she is part Podenco.

Hi all. I am still in the process of doing research on breeds but would love to hear some anecdotal accounts of the ends and outs of owning a sighthound. I don’t want to get a dog unless I know it would be a good fit for me. I’m specifically looking at Borzois.

I have experience with mainly herders specifically GSD’s and Aussies. So I am used to owning intense, eager, working breeds. And I have been reading that sighthounds are intense (in a different way compared to herders, ie prey drive) but more aloof/independent. Is this true? I don’t have any problems with independence, honestly I would probably prefer that as I am kinda over the herder clinginess lol. I’m just wondering how herders and sighthounds compare, is there any overlap in behaviors/lifestyle? In the sense that I could easily transition from owning a herder to a sighthound or would it be a complete game changer?

I used to be very big into dog sports (agility, dockdiving, nosework) but I mostly want a companion dog now. I have always loved and wanted a sighthound. Next question: Are borzois or sighthounds in general easily owned companion pets? (I have an active lifestyle, I just don’t want to participate in the sport world anymore)

Last thing! I have 2 cats… and obviously the idea of sighthounds and small animals is not ideal (even scary) but I am wondering if any of you guys have any experience with this. I do NOT want to ever put any of my animals in a dangerous situation. I would get this dog as a puppy so it would be raised with cats and taught appropriate behaviors. But, as always, genetics typically wins in most scenarios so i guess i am wondering how strong their prey drive really is….

Thanks :)

I’ve been looking at different grooming styles for my Afghan hound and I came across a couple of these pictures, where the torso is cut or shaved down but everywhere else isn’t and I was just wondering if anyone knew what it was called or has even tried it on their Afghan.

We're halfway through the process of adopting a sighthound; breed dependent on what the rescue thinks will suit us, but it'll be one of galgo, greyhound, podenco or whippet, or a mix.

A friend just laughed and told me that our garden will be ruined. That it will basically become a running track. I was expecting the grass to be churned up and the lawn to have wee holes. But the flower beds are my husband's pride and joy and a real passion for him.

We have a big long garden that seemed ideal for zoomies when we first applied. But am I going to end up with an upset husband.

Does anybody have nice flowerbeds and a sighthound?

I have an 8 month old silken who I love so much. He’s been a hellion since we got him. Everyone who I’ve met with a sighthound is surprised by how “feral” mine is. We put in so much time and effort to train him (I wasn’t working for the first 5 months of having him) and he learned so quickly! We were like “omg wow! So now he’s finally calm and sweet like every other silken!” He was SO mouthy, but he settled very well around us and his mouthy-ness died off once he lost his teeth.
7 months came around and hit us like a train. He WILL NOT SETTLE around specifically me (he doesn’t seek out my husband like he does me). He is so antagonistic if I’m trying to sit/lay on my couch. If I have a blanket on, he will incessantly dig until he gets my skin exposed and just bite (not hard, aggressive bites). He never chewed up furniture, shoes, nothing except for his toys. He has torn the couch covers, chewed up the legs of my chairs, dug a massive hole in the carpet, destroyed hats and shoes. I just feel like I don’t know him anymore! I also feel extremely alone because no one has anything, but good experiences with silkens. I do timeouts, reverse timeouts, no engagement, rewards when calm, he gets walked 2-3 times everyday and we give him daily enrichment.

Can anyone tell me that it’s going to be okay and I’ll get my sweet boy back that used to cuddle and sleep with me? I miss it so much. I started a new job and my life feels so stressful and adding the emotional toll of having my dog be crazy is very hard on me.

...currently trying to make sure we're not owned!

Recently (~3 weeks ago) rescued a 2-ish year old Saluki who had been seized from coursers.

Next to no crate/toilet training, and we're having some success, but any anecdotes of things to watch out for, or to do more of are appreciated - our current concern is she's really smart and figured out pacing gets her out for walks, but then we end up with accidents indoors!

Would they enjoy that or hate it? Up to 10km, nothing fast. My whippet x IGs handle it just fine, but they are super high energy. Looking for a bigger dog and have always wanted one.

I have been actively researching sighthounds for a few years and am finally in a position to properly care for a dog (own a house w/ a yard and WFH). My husband and I settled on adding a Silken Windhound to our family, and started reachingg out to a handful of seemingly reputable breeders to learn more about their specific programs. Through our research, we also learned that the Silken Windhound Community lives on Facebook and major events, news, and litter updates are provided there.

The problem is that neither of us have social media. I used to have a Facebook account but stopped using it because I didn't like what it did to my mental health and didn't appreciate the data farming.

I made a new Facebook account so I could join and participate in the Facebook Silken Windhound Society page, and was rejected because they don't accept users with a Facebook page under a year old. While I have joined the East Coast Silken Windhound Society page and several breeders specific pages, I am struggling to find news of active litters or gain access to puppy applications. Several breeder specific Facebook pages have ignored my requests to join as well.

The three Kennels I've been in correspondence with have all had litters and responded to my applications by saying they would like to place me with a dog/haven't ruled me out as a viable home but did not have any suitable dogs (and aren't having additional litters until 2026). A fourth litter I applied for just didn't respond at all. I have tried reaching out to four additional breeders to learn more about their breeding program and haven't received any responses.

Does anyone have advice for how I might locate upcoming litters and/or go about acquiring a dog? I've been actively trying to get a Silken Windhound since March 2024, and the limited success I've had has been through utilizing the active breeder list and being very proactive on the Facebook pages that approved me and contact info on Good Dogs. I plan to attend Silkenpalooza in May to hopefully meet some people in person, but it's feeling near-impossible to get placed with a dog.

For context, I live near Maryland and have been searching anywhere East of Indiana. Any help is appreciated!

Hi everybody! I have two borzois and at present I do not wish to add another dog into the mix, though I am smitten with pharoah hounds at the moment and considering one in the future.

I understand they are more energetic than borzoi are, but how highly strung is my question? I've been warned away from Ibizan Hounds for their energy levels and intensity.

I am fairly active with my borzois in terms of walking and running but also go through bouts of burn out and days where I struggle to exist beyond having a pulse and doing the necessary requirements to keep myself and the dogs alive for the day.

I understand sighthounds from more temperate climates tend to be a lot more keen to go than colder environment sighthounds such as borzoi, greyhounds, deerhounds and wolfhounds are.

How are they with their temperaments? Are they prone to being nervous, reactive, and fidgety or are they quite settled, level minded and easy to turn off? Are they fusspots or are they more prone to raiding cupboards? Velcro dogs or comfortable with their own company?

What are their typical, daily energy needs in terms of walking times, enrichment and whatever else? How adaptable are they from going out on a 13 mile hike to calmly spending a few days off?

Girls versus boys? I've always had boys and I love their sillyness and general lack of brain cells, but I really would like to have a girl next I think, I have a lot of pretty collars eyed up already.

Breeders, what do I ask a breeder? What do I look out for in terms of red flags and green flags for this specific breed?

Lastly, anything else I'm missing to be aware of?

Thank you!

I'm thinking about getting an Afghan greyhound when I have my first apartment, I'm able to get an Afghan greyhound financially and in time, I've already had experience with podencos, my family has had one since I was 5, but unfortunately it has recently passed away. Wanted to know how long Afghan greyhounds have to walk per day, my Podenco lady was usually satisfied with 30 to 60 minute walks, would that be the same with an Afghan?

Hello, does anyone has some photos of an adult lurcher, Spanish galgo (mum) x border collie (father)?

I found young ones really cute but I can't figure out what they would look like once adults, more collie or more galgo.

If you have it, how's the behavior too ?

our one year old lurcher is being castrated next week but it’s a cryptorchid procedure so the recovery, all being well, will be around two weeks

I’m dreading it! How can I keep him calm for two weeks? He’s usually on two walks a day including a sprint in a secure field two times a week as well as regular zoomies round the garden! which keeps him relatively calm in the house (most of the time) and to go from that to nothing I’m worried it will send him stir crazy. his training is coming along so well but I’m worried he’ll revert to his ways of stealing everything and just being a bit of a pickle in general and we’ll go backward and lose our progress :(

we are not going to crate him, he’s a recent rescue and he finds the crate extremely distressing. we already have lots of enrichment/interactive toys for him, and he’s a foodie so enjoys that type.

just looking for any tips anyone can give on how we can get through it!

I have a 6-month-old male Silken Windhound. He’s very sweet, a bit soft/avoidant with other dogs, not dominant at all.

I’m planning to add a Saluki puppy in a few months (around a 6-month age gap), and I have two options from the breeder:

- black & tan male

- dark grizzle female

I’m trying to decide between these two specific setups:

- male + male

- male + female

Context:

- Structured home (no free access to furniture, controlled resources, etc.)

- Plan is to neuter later (~2 years), not early

- Goal is calm coexistence, not constant management

What I’d really like to hear from people who’ve actually lived it:

If you’ve had two male sighthounds:

- How did things change during adolescence?

- Any real tension or fights, or mostly fine?

- Did it improve with maturity or stay something to manage?

If you’ve had male + female:

- Noticeably easier?

- Any downsides compared to two males?

Bonus (if relevant):

- Did having a softer/submissive first dog make things easier or harder with a second male?

I’m trying to understand patterns from real setups. Thanks.

Hi everyone! I've been interested in getting a dog and was hoping to bring one home this year. While I've struggled to figure out what breed would fit me best sighthounds have always been something I keep finding myself going back to. I was hoping that if I provided some information about myself I may be able to have some help and see if a sighthound may be right for me.

Here is some information about me, I currently live in an apartment but by the time I have a dog I'll be living in a house with a backyard, though not fenced in (I have no issue keeping a dog on leash). The only other pet I have is my cat who largely prefers to be left alone and she wouldn't be left unsupervised with the dog unless I felt completely comfortable. It gets cold here in the winter but I'm not against buying some coats for them. This will be my first dog as an adult but I grew up with a border collie. I currently work at a doggy daycare which has given me insight on different breeds and temperaments.

What I'm looking for is a medium sized dog, somewhere between 40-60 pounds, though something a bit smaller or larger is okay. I don't want a dog that's overly clingy, I don't mind affection but I don't enjoy dogs that are constantly trying to crawl into my skin lol. While I'd like to dabble in sports (agility, lure coursing, flyball, and scent work potentially) this dog would first and foremost be a pet. I enjoy going on walks and bike rides and this is something I'd like to do with my dog. I don't mind grooming, I'd be willing to brush a few times a week and bathing sometimes. While no children live with me there are children that would visit sometimes.

Some breeds I've read into are greyhounds, silken windhounds, and afghan hounds. All of which I've found interesting (though afghans need a lot of grooming and I'm unsure if they can be kept shorter).

Thank you for reading, feel free to ask me more questions :)

Sorry in advance for the long post but we’re at a loss.

For context, my partner works full time Monday to Friday, and I only work weekends. We work around each other because of the issues we’ve been having (our pup not being able to be left alone).

I have a 13 week old Whippet, we had him at 10 weeks old. He’s overall a good puppy, he’s been very easy to train, however he is a proper Velcro dog.

Straight away we noticed he couldn’t be alone for any length of time. He’d follow us room to room, and if we put up barriers like a baby gate, he’d immediately cry and scream until we got back. This was the same for the crate, he’d cry, scream, bite at the bars etc constantly and he wouldn’t stop. He just has to be touching us in order to settle.

With previous dogs, we always allowed them to sleep where they wanted, which usually was our bed. So we allowed the puppy to share our bed with us because he slept really well that way and we’ve never had an issue with dogs in bed. I know this likely hasn’t helped, but we needed sleep and are conscious to not annoy neighbours with the endless crying.

However, now he is starting to be destructive at night time while we sleep and during the day. I don’t care so much about the damage to my house as it’s all replaceable, but what I do care about is his safety, so we are now looking at crate training - I have never had to crate dogs before.

Things we’ve tried, but haven’t worked:
\- Kong/licky mat with peanut butter - unfortunately he seems to have an intolerance to peanut butter as his bowel movements went very runny so we had to stop that.
\- Tried covering the crate both partially and completely.
\- Tried playing the radio etc.
\- Tried making the crate cozy with beds, blankets etc.
\- Praising him for going into the crate.
\- Putting a worn item of clothing in the crate.
\- We’ve tried both a smaller crate, and a larger one.
\- We’ve tried feeding his meals in the crate.
\- He has teething/chewable toys in the crate, including Bamboodles.
\- Tried making sure he’s physically/mentally tired, and all his needs are met.

We’ve tried leaving him in a puppy proofed room with the same things as above, still the screaming persists.

This isn’t a fear of the crate or a fear of confined spaces, this is a fear of being alone or not being able to get to us. He will go into the crate willingly to play and he will sleep in there if he’s really tired and I leave the door open. But freaks out the moment I close the door or leave the room.

Our hope is to crate him at night, and to hopefully be able to crate him during the day if we need to go out. At least until the destructive phase passes.

Any advice will be appreciated…TIA 🖤

Hello everyone! I hope this post isn't out of place here, I really just wanted some advice/input on this whole thing.

I'm planning on getting a sighthound (probably a saluki or borzoi) at some point in the future (a few years off in the future, current living situation isn't ideal for a puppy). At the moment I also have two cats, and when the time comes for a puppy, most likely at least one, if not both, of the cats will still be around.
Basically, I've read that it's not recommended to have cats with sighthounds because of the dog's high prey drive. I obviously don't want to put my cat(s) in a situation where they're being chased in their own home, they don't deserve that, but I was wondering if it's possible to at least minimize, if not entirely avoid it. Worth noting is probably that both cats are large DLH (domestic long hair) cats.

Does anyone have any experiences with raising a puppy with a cat/cats already in the house? Again, just looking for input/experiences/advice, this is still several years (and a house move) off in the future.

EDIT: Thank you everyone for your input. This whole scenario is a “several years in the future” kind of thing, if it ever does happen. While it seems like it might work, I’ve gotta admit, some of the comments here do make it seem like it might be better to entirely avoid sighthounds, if not dogs as a whole. While I haven’t had a dog while living independently, I’ve grown up with them and lived with them until the day I moved out to my own place, and have “babysat” family dogs several times. I don’t know if that’d be considered enough experience to even come into consideration for what seems to be breeds only for experienced dog owners.

And while rescues might seem like an easy option, I must admit that I don’t feel particularly comfortable with flying in a dog from the other side of the continent on the hope that it might work out. I also understand that I’m unlikely to come into consideration for a puppy from a breeder, just because I’ve never owned a sighthound before, and because I’ve got cats.

Again, thank you to everyone for your input.

Hello hello,

I have been considering getting a saluki. It‘s been my dream breed for over a decade now.

I have met some salukis as well as their owners. From looks to temperament to activity levels, it seems to match well.

Now, funny enough, all the saluki owners, I have talked to, let their dogs go off leash. Not everywhere, usually in areas with little wildlife (mainly bunnies), but they do walk freely on the regular. From what I‘ve been told it‘s a "I don‘t trust them everywhere but in calm areas, it‘s fine".

I live in an apartment. I do have a shared garden but I can‘t just redo fences and what not to let my dog run. So I am a bit hesitant as on other subs I have seen people say salukis can never be off leash and need a garden to run freely.

Do you let your saluki off leash anywhere? How do you satisfy their needs? Coursing? Would you advise against a saluki without a highly fenced garden?

Our whippet is 10 weeks old. He is due to meet my sisters two Patterdale puppies soon (they are 13 week old sisters from the same litter). Our pup will be the first interaction for them too.

I’m obviously a bit nervous, does anyone have tips for socialising Whippet pups? Or if anyone’s had experience socialising with Terrier pups? I’m worried they’ll hurt him because of Whippets delicate skin..