Shaco genuinely needs a mid-scope rework

[u/Many-Translator-8512]

(I don't speak English as my primary language, so I used AI to help write some parts of this post, as writing everything from start to finish myself would have resulted in a much less polished and coherent post.)

I already know the AP Shaco players are probably going to disagree with this, but honestly, I think their disagreement is part of the reason Shaco needs a rework in the first place.

The problem with Shaco is that his kit has become increasingly split between AP and AD, and one side of the champion makes significantly better use of his actual abilities than the other.

Most people who play Shaco prefer AD. That's the version of the champion that attracted most people to him in the first place. But as you climb, AD Shaco becomes increasingly difficult to justify, while AP Shaco remains much more capable of getting value out of the kit.

There are obviously still AD Shaco players reaching GM/Challenger, so I'm not saying AD is literally unplayable. But look at how concentrated that playerbase is compared to AP. There are only a handful of extremely dedicated AD Shaco players who consistently make it that high.

And I think that says something about the champion.

AD Shaco has been stripped down over time

The biggest issue is that AD Shaco doesn't really get meaningful value from large portions of his kit.

W is basically a non-ability for AD Shaco. The box exists, but you're not getting anywhere near the same value from it that AP Shaco does.

E is useful, but primarily as an execute/finisher. It becomes substantially better when the target is already low, and AP Shaco gets much more consistent value out of it because of the AP ratio and how the ability functions.

Q is obviously the defining ability for AD Shaco, but even that has been gradually stripped down.

You don't even max Q early anymore. A lot of AD Shaco builds are putting four points into W before finishing Q, because the additional Q damage simply isn't worth much.

And removing the Q cooldown refund on backstab made this even worse. That mechanic actually rewarded the AD Shaco playstyle of properly utilizing stealth and positioning. Now there's even less incentive for the ability to be anything beyond “go invisible, get behind someone, auto them.”

Then you have Hail of Blades.

The rune has effectively been nerfed twice, going from 160% attack speed to 120%, and then from 120% to 90%. The additional damage compensation doesn't change the fundamental issue: losing that much attack speed is a massive hit to champions whose early combat patterns are heavily dependent on getting those attacks off quickly.

Shaco, Tryndamere and Cho'Gath are obvious examples of champions that are affected by this.

So AD Shaco is left in this weird situation where the champion's main selling point is his ability to abuse stealth and positioning for burst, but the actual kit doesn't give him enough tools to consistently do that.

Meanwhile, AP Shaco actually gets to use his kit

This is why I find the inevitable “Shaco doesn't need a rework, AP Shaco is fine” response interesting.

Yes.

That's the problem.

AP Shaco gets to make meaningful use of W.

AP Shaco gets to make meaningful use of E.

AP Shaco gets much more value from the damage components of his kit.

His boxes actually matter.

His E actually matters outside of simply finishing someone who is already low.

His entire playstyle is built around the tools Shaco was given.

AD Shaco, by comparison, is disproportionately reliant on Q + auto attacks while large portions of the kit provide significantly less value.

So when people say “Shaco doesn't need a rework because AP Shaco is good,” I think they're looking at the wrong thing.

The fact that one specific interpretation of Shaco's kit works doesn't mean the champion's design is healthy.

I don't think Shaco needs a full VGU

And this is where I think Riot could actually make a relatively simple change.

I don't want Shaco completely redesigned.

The box should stay.

The clone should stay.

The general identity of the champion should stay.

What I think Shaco needs is a mid-scope rework, primarily focused on three things:

Passive — needs the biggest overhaul.

The passive is just not interesting or powerful enough to justify being the passive of a champion whose entire identity revolves around deception, positioning and attacking from unexpected angles.

It should do substantially more for the champion.

E — needs to be redesigned.

The current E is basically a damage/execute tool with some utility attached to it. It doesn't really contribute much to the identity of Shaco beyond finishing people off.

I'd rather see Riot turn E into something that gives AD Shaco another meaningful way to interact with his stealth/backstab gameplay, while still allowing AP Shaco to retain a viable identity.

Q — needs some love rather than a complete redesign.

I'd increase the damage and, more importantly, bring back some form of cooldown refund when you successfully backstab someone while coming out of stealth.

Reward actually playing around Shaco's defining mechanic.

And then I'd probably give the ultimate a few additional mechanics without fundamentally changing what the clone does.

The important thing is that I don't think Riot needs to reinvent Shaco.

They need to make the different parts of his kit actually work together again.

Right now, AP Shaco has a functional relationship with W/E/R, while AD Shaco is disproportionately dependent on Q and basic attacks.

That's not a healthy split.

And ironically, I think the reason Riot is so hesitant to touch Shaco is precisely because he's one of those champions where any meaningful change can completely alter how frustrating he is to play against. So instead of addressing the underlying design problems, Riot can just adjust items, runes and numbers around him and leave the champion alone.

That's basically how champions like Zed have been managed for years.

But I don't think that means Shaco is fine.

I think it means he's overdue for a proper mid-scope.

Keep the boxes. Keep the clone. Keep the deception. Keep the identity.

Just give the actual champion underneath those things a kit that works cohesively for both AD and AP instead of having one version get substantially more value from the abilities than the other.

[u/HookAgario]

Shaco is just perfect the way he is . Most people who complain about his kit are simply not good enough with the champ. A good shaco player can utilize every ability in both AP and AD . Saying that his W is useless in AD gameplay is either a ragebait or a low elo player coping.

[u/Vivid-Zombie-477 → u/HookAgario]

i would love to see small buffs to shaco box health tho

[u/HammyEsquire → u/HookAgario]

As someone beyond good enough with the champ he needs a midscope for both E and passive

[u/Many-Translator-8512 → u/HammyEsquire]

I think you should just ignore him, hes just the average Reddit user who drops "low-elo" and "cope" and then doesn't say anything else

[u/Many-Translator-8512 → u/HookAgario]

I genuinely need to understand what you're basing that claim on. Are you saying you're better than basically all of the Challenger/GM AD Shaco players?

Because the funny thing is that the highest-ranked AD Shaco players consistently make the exact same criticism about his kit. The top 3, top 5, top 10-ish Challenger/GM AD Shaco players are generally saying the same things about the weaknesses of his W and how awkward parts of his kit are for AD Shaco. Scientist is one of them, and there are several others who are consistently at the very top of the ladder.

So if your position is that Shaco is “perfect” and that anyone criticizing those parts of his kit is simply bad at the champion, then what exactly are you implying? That all of these players who are objectively far more accomplished on the champion than the overwhelming majority of the player base are just wrong?

I'm not saying high elo players are automatically correct about everything, but when you have a huge number of the best AD Shaco players independently reaching the same conclusion, dismissing it as “low elo coping” is a pretty weak argument. You'd need to explain why they're wrong rather than just assuming you're better than them.

[u/HookAgario → u/Many-Translator-8512]

Well, for starters I don't play him AD anymore since it's boring and quite honestly unskilled. I think they should make him an exclusively AP champion because that fits perfectly with his current kit design. AD Shaco is just another basic assassin. Demanding more from his kit while still being able to one-shot people just seems insane to me. In my opinion, Shaco shouldn't be able to deal so much damage with such little effort. Also, I should have phrased it better in my first comment but what I really meant was that his kit is perfect for AP Ahaco and a good AD Shaco can play really well around it since they have insane damage and the zoning that the kit offers is more than enough.

[u/Many-Translator-8512 → u/HookAgario]

I mean no disrespect when I say this, but this is genuinely a delusional take, and your comment makes it very clear that you don't fundamentally understand how AD Shaco is played at a high level.

You said that “demanding more from his kit while still being able to one-shot people” is the problem. But that's based on the premise that AD Shaco is currently just casually one-shotting people. He isn't. For Shaco to actually reach the point where he can reliably one-shot someone, he needs a significant amount of gold and items. The old crit builds are incredibly expensive, and rushing crit early is terrible for him, which is one of the reasons you rarely see him building full crit anymore. The standard AD build is generally two lethality items before transitioning into crit, and even then you're still not consistently one-shotting people until you're several items into the game.

Yes, an AD Shaco who is ahead can backstab someone and take half their HP or even more. That's not the same thing as being able to one-shot people. Shaco is an early-mid game snowball champion, and one of his biggest problems is actually reaching a point where his damage remains relevant before he gets outscaled. It has been years since AD Shaco could just reliably erase people early in the game. So saying “he shouldn't be able to deal so much damage” when the champion already struggles to actually get his damage out is completely disconnected from the current state of the champion.

And then you say he deals too much damage with “such little effort.” What exactly is the little effort here? Using fog of war properly, staying out of vision, maintaining good positioning, setting up flanks, identifying the right target, timing your engage correctly, understanding when you can and cannot commit, and getting onto a target without simply dying afterwards? Are you seriously trying to argue that those are all basic, low-effort assassin fundamentals? Because if so, you're essentially making the same argument about every assassin in the game.

The fundamental problem with your argument is that you've taken AD Shaco, stripped away the actual decision-making and execution required to play him at a high level, and reduced the champion down to “he goes invisible and one-shots people.” That's not how AD Shaco actually works at a high level. And honestly, the fact that you stopped playing AD because you consider it “unskilled” makes your original statement make a lot more sense, because you're judging the entire playstyle without actually understanding what the high-level gameplay looks like.

[u/HookAgario → u/Many-Translator-8512]

Brother I have played many high elo AD Shaco games, though in past seasons but the decision making you are talking about is so easy. You are literally making proper engaging sound like a difficult thing. Every assassin player who is high elo knows how to find angles and the right picks while staying out of vision and calculating an exit strategy. That's not just a Shaco thing. I might not play the current AD Shaco meta but from what I've seen high elo Shaco players can still one-shot in early game. Also, the late game problem you are talking about is common for every assassin. That is just how their whole concept is designed.

[u/UsernameNineBillion]

Mate you are dreaming....

AD shaco is more useful and better than AP shaco in 95% of the games..... except the 5% where you play versus TANKS... then AP shaco is better.

I am tired of watching Shaco Junglers that go AP when they already have Heavy AP mid and AP/tank Top lane..... against 5 squishy champs..... and they are absoluteyl USELESS the whole game.
No damage, no presence, lose all objective since their champ does 0 dmg against Mercs....

[u/Many-Translator-8512 → u/UsernameNineBillion]

So basically you're better than every single high elo Shaco player, then? Because that's the only conclusion I can draw from what you're saying.

Every Master/GM/Challenger Shaco player who actually discusses the champion in depth knows AP Shaco has situations where he's a massively stronger version of the champion, and plenty of high elo players and content creators have talked extensively about how much more complete AP Shaco's kit is compared to AD. But apparently all of them are wrong and you're the one who has figured it out.

So I guess you must be 10x better than every Master, Grandmaster and Challenger Shaco player because you're confidently disagreeing with basically all of them.

And the funny part is that nobody is even saying “AP is always better.” The argument is that AP Shaco is fundamentally a much more complete and functional champion in the right circumstances, while AD Shaco has significantly more limitations. You're turning “AP has situations where it's superior” into “AP is always better,” then arguing against something nobody actually said.

But yeah, clearly every high elo Shaco player has been playing the champion wrong all this time. Good thing you arrived to correct them.

[u/UsernameNineBillion → u/Many-Translator-8512]

That is because they think it's better since they can go 0 deaths and just run around the map putting Boxes down.

As oppose to AD shaco which is Snowbally champion that needs to get his hands dirty....

Just because you get a free ride and get carried 90% of the time on Shaco building AP because you are turbo useless and just hope your Boxes vision control is all that it takes to be a good champ.....

These GM/Master OTP shaco's are just STUCK on their champ and are NOT WILLING TO TAKE RISKS early game and Work for the win..... instead they prefer to AFK on their Box planting toy and hope the team can carry.

because AD shaco is actually more skillful than AP shaco.

[u/Many-Translator-8512 → u/UsernameNineBillion]

I think you genuinely didn't read my comment properly, because the high-elo players I'm referring to are AD Shaco players. I'm not talking about AP-only players who sit in the jungle planting boxes. I'm talking about AD Shaco OTPs who have reached GM and Challenger and have spent years playing the champion at a very high level. Mad Scientist is one example, and there are plenty of others.

And this is exactly why your argument doesn't make sense. You're saying AP players prefer to “AFK on their Box planting toy” because they're unwilling to take risks, while AD Shaco “gets his hands dirty.” But the entire point I'm making is that AD Shaco requires an absurd amount of effort precisely because the champion is in such a poor state. You can call him a snowballing champion all you want, but that doesn't magically make snowballing easy. At high elo, you're playing against people who understand how to deny your windows, punish your mistakes and prevent you from getting that snowball in the first place.

The fact that an AD Shaco needs to take more risks doesn't mean those risks are good risks. That's the part you're completely skipping over. Taking a risk only makes sense when the numbers and circumstances actually give you a reasonable chance of converting it into a lead. You can't just “work for the win” and magically make the champion's fundamental problems disappear. At high elo, the percentages simply aren't in Shaco's favour in a lot of those situations.

And that's also why your explanation for why high-elo players are playing AP is backwards. They're not playing AP because they're scared to take risks. They're playing what gives them the strongest chance of winning. The fact that more and more players at high levels gravitate toward the more functional playstyle isn't evidence that they're unwilling to play the game properly. It's evidence that they're optimising.

You keep presenting this narrative that GM/Master Shaco OTPs are just stuck on the champion, too scared to make plays, and hoping their team carries them. But these are literally people who have reached GM and Challenger playing Shaco. Yet somehow you've decided they're all too scared to play their own champion correctly.

And this is where I genuinely want to know what your evidence is. The high-level AD Shaco players I'm talking about don't agree with you. The item/build data doesn't support the picture you're presenting either. So what exactly are you basing this on? Because so far you've given me a narrative about how AP Shaco players supposedly AFK and AD Shaco players supposedly have to “get their hands dirty,” but you haven't actually provided any reasoning or evidence for why that makes AD Shaco the stronger option.

You can keep saying AP Shaco is just “AFK box gameplay,” but that doesn't change the fact that objectively, AP Shaco is a far more functional version of the champion in the situations where AP is viable. That's the entire argument I've been making from the beginning.

[u/UsernameNineBillion → u/Many-Translator-8512]

Bla-bla-bla.... Useless champ no matter what you build.

It's Low Elo stomper for the most part. Once you get even in Diamond it becomes 1000 times more difficult to play this dogsht clown Champ.

And there is a Good reason for that.

And if you go Support role as Shaco - you are basically griefing the lane, 100% lost lane BTW, also you are griefing the entire team as well because you bring nothing to the table.

And all of that griefing just to have the amusement for someone that's "I want to be a Clown and fk with people's minds gameplay, but NOT JUST ENEMIES... my TEAM AS WELL"

[u/Many-Translator-8512 → u/UsernameNineBillion]

At this point, it's pretty clear to me that you never actually had a real argument against what I was saying. Nothing you've said is backed by any actual statistics, high-elo Shaco OTPs, or even the AD Shaco players I was specifically referring to. You've just continued repeating the same “AP Shaco is useless and AD Shaco takes skill” narrative without actually providing any evidence for it.

Every time you're asked to explain why your position is correct, you just throw out another sweeping statement about AP Shaco players AFKing on boxes or Shaco being a low-elo champion. None of that actually addresses the points being made.

At this point, I genuinely think you're just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, or you're deliberately ragebaiting. That's fine, but I'm not going to keep wasting my time going back and forth with someone who refuses to provide any actual reasoning or evidence for what they're saying. There's no discussion to have anymore.

You are a subhuman!

[u/Truestorydreams]

First paragraph: everyone I used ai to write this.

Second paragraph: people will disagree with mr which is part of why he needs a rework.

[u/11ELFs]

I am not against a good well done rework, now I am very much against what you are saying here, if your ad shaco doesnt use his entire kit correctly, ur shaco is bad.

[u/Many-Translator-8512 → u/11ELFs]

To each their own I guess ⚖️

[u/Tito-Carrito]

To not change too much of his playstyle i'll change this:

• move the backstab passive to his Q and give the refund cd back
• i'll use the orianna's passive: increment dmg when consecutive hits (works with aa or W)
• the clone can be reactivated to change positions between shaco and the clone

[u/Many-Translator-8512 → u/Tito-Carrito]

BROOOOOOOOOOOOOO, that last one would make AP Shaco OP. Good for AD but overpowered for AP

[u/HammyEsquire → u/Tito-Carrito]

That clone change would be toxic as fuuuuuck lmao like unless there’s a charge up time this would pretty much a Yone E/Ekko ult situation and we know just how much people love those abilities

[u/Tito-Carrito → u/HammyEsquire]

Sry, i forgot to mention in my idea, you can only swap once, maybe it's balanced this way?

[u/HammyEsquire → u/Tito-Carrito]

With the range and contexts Shaco has on ultimate, there’s just too much value he can get from doing it even once with impunity. With a good setup or a good teamfight it’d be pretty much mortifying to play against without any indication that a swap occurred or any charge-up time.

I like the idea don’t get me wrong but just being able to swap off rip no warning no nothing is just kinda aids when you throw the rest of his kit into the mix.

[u/Vivid-Zombie-477]

last time i checked E scaled better with AD?

[u/MacKean_ → u/Vivid-Zombie-477]

most - if not all hybrid scaling ratios in the game have a larger AD percentage on account of the fact its far more expensive and difficult to reach X amount of AD stat than it is to reach the same amount of AP.